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Isareli Nuclear Weapons: Existence & Capability

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  • Isareli Nuclear Weapons: Existence & Capability

    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    I don't think Israel cares, they've made comments in the past that they would be willing to start WWIII if they were being over run and take everyone with them.
    They were also scared shitless when Moscow threatened intervention and knew that they could do nothing to stop their own destruction.

    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    Based on previous statements and estimated arsenal and delivery means there wont be a major Arab city left
    And here is where imagination has overtaken reality. The only thing that I am sure of is that the Israelis have mastered the aircraft delivered gun type nuke that would not require any testing. Maybe they would have mastered the implosion type uranium nuke if Negev and the Vela incident are taken to be true. But H-bombs? And miniaturization onto cruise missiles. Both without massive testing? Israel certainly did not carry out enough missile tests to verify that they have impact or air burst fuses mastered. And when was the last time Israel carried out a nuclear exercise? What about the nuclear weapons delivery crews? Have they been vetted, especially the submarine captains who are supposed to be carrying this out?

    As I stated elsewhere, once you start comparing Israel to known professional nuclear forces, Israel comes up lacking big time.

    I am not convinced of this ability to take out every Arab city on earth.

  • #2
    Zraver Reply

    "73 wasn't that close....the Syrian army lacked the depth to go the distance and was aimed at the Golan not Tel Aviv."

    Lunacy. The whole point of controlling the Golan is to hold Israel by the throat. Syria wasn't looking for half measures with a negotiated settlement if holding all the cards. They'd have gone for the jugular and that means driving on Tel Aviv and splitting the nation.

    You. Really. Should. Know. Better.

    "Based on previous statements and estimated arsenal and delivery means there wont be a major Arab city left..."

    I'd agree that every major target (civilian and military) belonging to the confrontation state(s) would be declared targeted. Cease and desist. Nuclear weapons have zero utility in the absence of a willingness to be employed.

    I'd like, though, to read those "...previous [official] statements..." declaring every city of consequence between the Magreb and Persian Gulf shall be toasted without qualification. Would you provide them? Using a nuke on Rabat, for instance, seems pointless when it might be better to send two at Damascus. Or Teheran.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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    • #3
      Sirs,lobbing nukes everywhere is suicidal for both sides.Why on Earth would an arab strategist lead the Israelis to a position of going kamikaze?The idea is to throw them out of ME,not kill every single Jew.And you can't do that in a conventional manner,just as the Cold War did not ended by conventional means nor by open conflict.
      Arab states,or for that matter Iran,getting nuclear weapons does not mean nuclear war.Only leveling the field vis a vis the Israelis.A conventional war also does not mean a nuclear war,nor does an Israeli conventional defeat equals genocide.However,all these can be steps in a gradual weakening of the Israeli will and capability to resist.
      Those who know don't speak
      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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      • #4
        Originally posted by zraver View Post
        Ya living in farming villages.... not cities.
        Israels don't have enough and the Muslims won't allow Israel to even get that far. Israel would have to empty its entire arsenal of nukes at one go. You place too much faith and overestimate Israel's capabilities. For instance, I have not seen any weapons testing or fuse testing in which US, Britain, France, Russia, China, and India have done.

        So that means Israel is depending on airplane nuke delivery and you have muslims on the other side of Asia such as Malaysia, Indonesia, even India.

        Get real for a minute.

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        • #5
          Blademaster Reply

          "...you have muslims on the other side of Asia such as Malaysia, Indonesia, even India."

          Zraver suggested arab cities. I'd like to read any offered official Israeli literature indicating a nuclear use doctrine as he's described.
          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
            They were also scared shitless when Moscow threatened intervention and knew that they could do nothing to stop their own destruction.

            And here is where imagination has overtaken reality. The only thing that I am sure of is that the Israelis have mastered the aircraft delivered gun type nuke that would not require any testing. Maybe they would have mastered the implosion type uranium nuke if Negev and the Vela incident are taken to be true. But H-bombs? And miniaturization onto cruise missiles. Both without massive testing? Israel certainly did not carry out enough missile tests to verify that they have impact or air burst fuses mastered. And when was the last time Israel carried out a nuclear exercise? What about the nuclear weapons delivery crews? Have they been vetted, especially the submarine captains who are supposed to be carrying this out?
            Assumign the crews spend most days launching satellites then yes the crews have several launches under their belts. The Sa'vit space launch vehicle is a three stage missile with several sat launches under its belt. As for the technology, we know Israel has spent a great deal of effort spying on the US and France. We also know Israel has a supply of plutonium from Dimona.

            S-2, its going to take some digging but an Israeli politician made a comment to that effect during the cold war.

            As I stated elsewhere, once you start comparing Israel to known professional nuclear forces, Israel comes up lacking big time.

            I am not convinced of this ability to take out every Arab city on earth.[/QUOTE]

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            • #7
              I cannot believe you just wrote all this.

              Originally posted by zraver View Post
              Assumign the crews spend most days launching satellites then yes the crews have several launches under their belts. The Sa'vit space launch vehicle is a three stage missile with several sat launches under its belt.
              You're suggesting that civie satellite launch with days of prep work is equivalent to a nuke strike. So, a truck driver would know how to drive a M1.

              Originally posted by zraver View Post
              As for the technology, we know Israel has spent a great deal of effort spying on the US and France.
              So our security is that incompetent.

              Originally posted by zraver View Post
              We also know Israel has a supply of plutonium from Dimona.
              North Korea has Pu too but I am as well not going to say they have a Pu bomb.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by S2 View Post
                "...you have muslims on the other side of Asia such as Malaysia, Indonesia, even India."

                Zraver suggested arab cities. I'd like to read any offered official Israeli literature indicating a nuclear use doctrine as he's described.
                What I am getting is that if Israel attacks Arab cities with nukes, other Muslim countries are going to respond as a show of solidarity much like NATO even it is not as formal as NATO. It would be very much like Islam vs. Judaism, a religious war.

                Once that happens, every Muslim country is going to be busy as a bee building or obtaining nukes in revenge and Israel can only wait for its inevitable doom.

                The more I think about it, the more I think that General Nie's strategic thinking should be applied to Israel nuclear strategic thinking. Don't invite a nuke response because it only takes a minimum of 5 working nukes (by law of 3, need 15 to ensure 5 detonations) to completely kill Israel since is a narrow strip of land and the fallout will make nearly or all of Israel radioactive whereas Israel would need a minimum of 1000 nukes or more to take out every Muslim country.

                I also forgot Pakistan. I would have no problem believing that Pakistan would allow passage of nuclear technology or nukes to other Muslim states desiring for revenge if Pakistan would not do the act itself. Moresover, Israel would be unable to respond against Pakistan should Pakistan decide to retaliate as a show of solidarity for Muslim countries when an Arab city gets hit. Pakistan has the missiles or are developing missiles with range that could hit Israel. Whether Pakistan has a workable fuse or not remains to be seen.

                So in that respect, if I were Israel, I wouldn't be too confident in brandishing my nukes around. Because once you use it, you are in effect a walking corpse.
                Last edited by Blademaster; 05 Aug 12,, 18:58.

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                • #9
                  Zraver Reply

                  "...S-2, its going to take some digging but an Israeli politician made a comment to that effect during the cold war..."

                  Save it then. Not what I'm looking for and very unlikely to be an officially articulated position on Israeli nuclear weapons employment doctrine.

                  "...As I stated elsewhere, once you start comparing Israel to known professional nuclear forces, Israel comes up lacking big time..."

                  I rather doubt your qualifications to judge unless you've detailed knowledge of their vetting program (PRP), technical assembly training, security, and command/control procedures. Additionally you'd have to possess a demonstrated expertise in our own programs, policies and procedures. Of what I know regarding your background, it's unlikely you possess such. OTOH, I've seen nothing about their security, communications, nor technical acumen to suggest they've a nuclear weapons surety program that isn't equal to the requirements.

                  I'm equally unqualified to judge, btw, their actual competency. I've neither reviewed their doctrinal literature nor witnessed their operational training. Minimally it takes those with years of operational experience within their own nat'l nuclear surety programs AND an in-depth opportunity to view Israeli operations and doctrine to pass such. I can absolutely assure you, however, that we didn't rigorously adhere to our own requirements as specified in AR 50-5 to the vetting of personnel in contact with nuclear weapons.

                  Nobody on this board is, IMV, qualified to pass judgement.

                  Nobody.
                  "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                  "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                  • #10
                    Uhm, I didn't say the second part of that you responded to, OoE did.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by S2 View Post
                      "...S-2, its going to take some digging but an Israeli politician made a comment to that effect during the cold war..."

                      Save it then. Not what I'm looking for and very unlikely to be an officially articulated position on Israeli nuclear weapons employment doctrine.

                      "...As I stated elsewhere, once you start comparing Israel to known professional nuclear forces, Israel comes up lacking big time..."

                      I rather doubt your qualifications to judge unless you've detailed knowledge of their vetting program (PRP), technical assembly training, security, and command/control procedures. Additionally you'd have to possess a demonstrated expertise in our own programs, policies and procedures. Of what I know regarding your background, it's unlikely you possess such. OTOH, I've seen nothing about their security, communications, nor technical acumen to suggest they've a nuclear weapons surety program that isn't equal to the requirements.

                      I'm equally unqualified to judge, btw, their actual competency. I've neither reviewed their doctrinal literature nor witnessed their operational training. Minimally it takes those with years of operational experience within their own nat'l nuclear surety programs AND an in-depth opportunity to view Israeli operations and doctrine to pass such. I can absolutely assure you, however, that we didn't rigorously adhere to our own requirements as specified in AR 50-5 to the vetting of personnel in contact with nuclear weapons.

                      Nobody on this board is, IMV, qualified to pass judgement.

                      Nobody.
                      Zraver didn't make the second quote. OOE did. Stuart by virtue of being a nuclear missileer is highly qualify to know what works and what doesn't work by virtually of going the same processes and getting the answer.

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                      • #12
                        Israel's strategy has never been to take down every single Muslim or even every single Arab country in the world. If Israel is on the ropes with signs of going down, then she will lash out at her attackers. This serves two purposes: 1) This will persuade the world community to jump in and bring to a cessation of hostilities, preferably before it's too late, and 2) in the unlikely (or likely?) event that the world does nothing except talk uselessly, this is Israel's final "Fuck You" both to the countries attacking her, and to the world that chose to sit by and do nothing.

                        Moreover, Israel has no need to attack anyone aside from the aggressors. Extra attacks don't serve their purpose at all and would only divert logistics and support from the attacks that are essential.

                        Harsh and unwarranted, yes, but a man with his back up against the ropes quickly running out of options often doesn't care much more about more than surviving.
                        Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                        Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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                        • #13
                          Then tell Bibi not to brashly talk war because that is what Bibi is doing and is leading Israel into this kind of trap. What Bibi is doing is irresponsible. He's poking the bear.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            I cannot believe you just wrote all this.

                            You're suggesting that civie satellite launch with days of prep work is equivalent to a nuke strike. So, a truck driver would know how to drive a M1.
                            Much of the prep work is involved in getting the sat up to the right location in space without hitting anything else. The rocket/missile is ready to go a lot sooner.

                            So our security is that incompetent.
                            China got them, why not Israel?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                              Then tell Bibi not to brashly talk war because that is what Bibi is doing and is leading Israel into this kind of trap. What Bibi is doing is irresponsible. He's poking the bear.
                              He's talking of war with Iran. No Arab country is going to stick its neck out for the Iranians. In private the Arab rulers might even cheer on the Israelis.
                              Last edited by Firestorm; 05 Aug 12,, 19:41.

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