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Merkava vs Abrams

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
    Not really. First you have to destroy the sluice gates that acts as a relief valve. If you can block the sluice gate, sure it can work. If you can't, it won't work.
    NO, I am talking about the effects of hydraulic shock caused by water water not sluice gates. Lake Nasser is some 3.7 billion metric tons of water.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by zraver View Post
      NO, I am talking about the effects of hydraulic shock caused by water water not sluice gates. Lake Nasser is some 3.7 billion metric tons of water.
      I don't see what this has to do with the Merkava and Abrams, but Lake Nasser is >100 billion of tons of water at any time.
      Spoiler!
      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by zraver View Post
        NO, I am talking about the effects of hydraulic shock caused by water water not sluice gates. Lake Nasser is some 3.7 billion metric tons of water.
        Concrete gravity dams are also designed to deal with earthquakes. The kind of nukes posed by Israel would barely qualify as a low level earthquake. No, the hydraulic shock would be handled by the dam. At the very most, it would cause a breach but something that is controllable and manageable. This dam is not like the dam that was bombed by Britain during WWII.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
          Concrete gravity dams are also designed to deal with earthquakes. The kind of nukes posed by Israel would barely qualify as a low level earthquake. No, the hydraulic shock would be handled by the dam. At the very most, it would cause a breach but something that is controllable and manageable. This dam is not like the dam that was bombed by Britain during WWII.
          The Mohne Dam (a concrete gravity dam) held back about 1/10th the water of Lake Nasser but a 20kt nuke would be about 4000 times larger. During Chatise, the earthen dams proved better able to absorb the shocks than the concrete gravity dams.

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          • #50
            Ben, How did you personally feel driving a Merkava?
            Ego Numquam

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            • #51
              I wasn't a driver, I was a tank gunner. That being said, I enjoyed every single damned second in it. There are very few things as fun as being in a behemoth that large and that powerful knowing the awesome capabilities of death and destruction that are at your control.
              Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

              Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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              • #52
                What did others around you feel about it?

                Reason I ask - is that if you feel no fear in the thing - that's a pretty powerful advantage.
                Ego Numquam

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                • #53
                  Chunder Reply

                  "...if you feel no fear in the thing - that's a pretty powerful advantage."

                  Maybe. Hopefully the T.C. feels very real fear and imparts that upon his crew effectively. Confidence in your equipment is one thing. Dangerous arrogance regarding potential threats is altogether different.
                  "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                  "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                  • #54
                    I don't know about the rest of my crew-members, but I was well aware of the tank's capabilities, knew its weaknesses and advantages, and knew when to be afraid and when I could feel confident.

                    There are two reasons for this: The first reason is that if anything happens to the TC, as gunner I had to take his position and lead the crew. There are two reasons for that as well, the first being that as a gunner I probably am most aware of battlefield positioning and enemy location, and secondly, the TC also has a gunner position. Being the only one trained to fire properly means it makes sense for me to advance to TC position and keep shooting effectively.

                    The second reason I knew so much about the tank is because I'm a bit of a geek, especially when it comes to military stuff. I honestly tried to learn everything I could about all four positions in the tank without actually going to TC course, and I knew stuff that other gunners didn't know, including how to run emergency systems I wasn't allowed to touch and how to recalibrate the entire FCS. In a pinch I could load or drive, but one of my earlier TC's saw how I kept studying more and gave me lots of training in the TC position. I suspect it was also because he enjoyed being "injured" and laying in back doing nothing

                    All in all, I can say that it worked out, because it was this professionalism that got me chosen both as the gunner in the company XO's tank (CO preferred a TC as a gunner), and also as the gunner for the Brigade CO's tank, effectively validating me as the best tank gunner in a brigade of 40 tanks and ~2,500 people. Not too useful in the real world, but still something I'm kinda proud of
                    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                      Concrete gravity dams are also designed to deal with earthquakes. The kind of nukes posed by Israel would barely qualify as a low level earthquake. No, the hydraulic shock would be handled by the dam. At the very most, it would cause a breach but something that is controllable and manageable. This dam is not like the dam that was bombed by Britain during WWII.
                      The impulse from a 20k nuke is many orders of magnitude greater than a WWII "Earthquake" bomb. It is likely that Israeli nukes are at least 40kt, and not unlikely that some are in the 60-80k range. No valid comparison is possible with a 10,000# chemical explosive WWII bomb, unless the nuke misses the target by a substantial distance - well beyond the normal CEP of modern weapons.
                      Last edited by USSWisconsin; 12 Aug 12,, 21:39.
                      sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                      If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by S2 View Post
                        "...if you feel no fear in the thing - that's a pretty powerful advantage."

                        Maybe. Hopefully the T.C. feels very real fear and imparts that upon his crew effectively. Confidence in your equipment is one thing. Dangerous arrogance regarding potential threats is altogether different.
                        Hard to feel fear in a tank though, don't know about the merkava or artillery but the Patton and the Abrams were both the most dangerous things to us and the one thing we were constantly on guard for. With the caveat that I never saw combat and was not a TC or gunner, we trained for it. But every time we trained the risk of death or crippling injury was real and most likely to be the result of your own tank getting you. Halon going off, slips/falls, getting run over, getting caught between the turret and hull, exhaust stream, EL uncouple, chemical spills, accidents and roll overs, breach levers....

                        So much going on, so much to be aware of, so much riding on doing it right, and such a fast pace that there was not really time to be afraid.

                        I loved driving, loading was boring, gunnery for the gunner was cool but infrequent, got to drive every time the tank went to the field. Crossing wire or a creek, moving through lanes, backing up and taking directions blind, its a lot more technical than people think.

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                        • #57
                          "...don't know about the merkava or artillery but the Patton and the Abrams were both the most dangerous things to us and the one thing we were constantly on guard for..."

                          Correct. Everytime we headed downrange there was real potential for disaster. I've seen an M548 cargo carrier destroyed by a low-order detonation while in convoy from the ASP. Killed the driver and scattered the remaining projos on board. I've seen a Lance battery burned out by a range fire that reached the battery position before they could displace. No fire guards posted. Seen a troop crushed by two 5t trucks backing end-to-end with him in the middle.

                          I watched a XVIII Airborne Corps TA Battery make a silk smooth jump into Ft. Sill in late February, 1982 and one month later read of six dead and 150+ injured in a jump at NTC.

                          Personally, I never climbed in a chopper without wondering if I'd land again alive.

                          All that without ever seeing a shot fired in anger while in uniform.
                          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by S2 View Post
                            "...don't know about the merkava or artillery but the Patton and the Abrams were both the most dangerous things to us and the one thing we were constantly on guard for..."

                            Correct. Everytime we headed downrange there was real potential for disaster. I've seen an M548 cargo carrier destroyed by a low-order detonation while in convoy from the ASP. Killed the driver and scattered the remaining projos on board. I've seen a Lance battery burned out by a range fire that reached the battery position before they could displace. No fire guards posted. Seen a troop crushed by two 5t trucks backing end-to-end with him in the middle.

                            I watched a XVIII Airborne Corps TA Battery make a silk smooth jump into Ft. Sill in late February, 1982 and one month later read of six dead and 150+ injured in a jump at NTC.

                            Personally, I never climbed in a chopper without wondering if I'd land again alive.

                            All that without ever seeing a shot fired in anger while in uniform.
                            Yup, think most of us have those stories, specially NTC that place eats people. We had two MCI's when I did rotations there. One was a rolled over 5 ton loaded with troops and another was (IIRC) a California Air National Guard jet (like a lear jet) that was doing some sort of C3 work that went down. Plus a bunch of smaller mishaps. A year or so before my first rotation was the Colorado Wadi disaster when a scout platoon went over the cliff. There is live ordnance all over the place, even outside the live fire ranges there are (were) piles of unused hoffman devices.

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                            • #59
                              We had a dude that just slipped and fell off his tank, dislocating his shoulder. We also had a dude that had his M16 sliced off at connection between the butt and the upper part of the body, and another guy that managed to slice about 4cm off the barrel of our coax FN MaG. Like a hot knife through butter, neat as you please.
                              Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                              Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by S2 View Post
                                "...if you feel no fear in the thing - that's a pretty powerful advantage."

                                Maybe. Hopefully the T.C. feels very real fear and imparts that upon his crew effectively. Confidence in your equipment is one thing. Dangerous arrogance regarding potential threats is altogether different.
                                Yeah - but having a few guys work under me who cannot for the life of them make up their own minds and constantly impart fear to the point of procrastination - that is what the TC is there to do. Not them.

                                Damn sir - it is infuriating at times.
                                Ego Numquam

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