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Thread: Syrian Civil War Developments

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunder View Post
    Saying people are collectively unconscious because a government has failed to stand up and say sorry (for an act it didn't commit, and mindful that a request for reparations may well be made, from taxpayers dollars, paid by people who don't had anything to do with the actions of their forbears) and the evident incapacity to determine what reparations are necessary, and to what length and extent - can easily turn into moral usury.
    Chunder please read up on Jung and the collective unconscious. Then please read, s.l.o.w.l.y this time, the thread and the exchange, for some much needed background and context. Then please realize that ross and I were merely lazily airing abstract internet philosophy with NO malice involved. Take the hint further from the fact that it was a self-limiting exchange once the moment had passed.

    If after ALL that you still want to get yourself hot under the collar, I have just this to say brother -

    If the Queen of England can go over for a visit of reconciliation to Ireland and lay a wreath at Croke Park, for something that happened 90 years ago, she can as well hop over to India for a cup of tea and lay a wreath at Jallianwalla Bagh while she is at it as step 2 on her royal agenda.

    Sound fair to you? If not, why not?

  2. #62
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Meanwhile, back at the UN...

    Russians & Chinese were no show at last saturday's council meeting.

    Toward a Syria Security Council Resolution?

    To give you a sense of how much of a priority this is to Russia and China, well, they did not even show up at the meeting. The four European countries on the council –France, Germany UK, and Portugal — are each co-sponsoring the text. Lebanon, which is on the Council, would probably vote against the resolution. This means that the big prize right now is South Africa, India, and Brazil.

    It would appear that the West’s diplomatic strategy is to try and convince those three countries to vote for the resolution (as oppose to abstain), which the west feels would make it more difficult for Russia and China to veto.

  3. #63
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    Why would that make it more difficult? If China or Russia are gonna veto, what does it make a difference how many supporters there are?
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  4. #64
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    It might help in the case of China as they don't like to be the only one when it comes to matters beyond China.

    In the case of Russia I have difficulty seeing it making a difference. They have had arms relations with Syria for a while so it may be awkward for them. But if it is negotiable then the threat of a veto might make offers sweeter.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by vsdoc View Post
    Chunder please read up on Jung and the collective unconscious. Then please read, s.l.o.w.l.y this time, the thread and the exchange, for some much needed background and context. Then please realize that ross and I were merely lazily airing abstract internet philosophy with NO malice involved.
    I wasn't referring to your post with Ross, I was referring to your interjection to the previous post. Your welcome to chat to Ross I havn't any issue with that at all. I will have to read up on Jung.


    Take the hint further from the fact that it was a self-limiting exchange once the moment had passed.

    If after ALL that you still want to get yourself hot under the collar, I have just this to say brother -
    I sat through 2 years of a very anti British History teacher in school who basically hated all things British. The hate of a nation now, for what had existed prior, seemed much more like a mental condition than that of a legitimate rap sheet. Given the fixation. I am very solidly determined to mention that in the strongest possible terminology the opposition to it. The thing is, I am not hot under the collar about it - Hot under the collar and I would have been flat out abusive. I'm not about to excuse it as a collective unconscious. It not only has to justify itself - it has to fit the nation like a tailored suit - rather than just another label used to prevent uncomfortable quizzing of basic position of the person. However, granted I will have to find the time to read Jung.

    If the Queen of England can go over for a visit of reconciliation to Ireland and lay a wreath at Croke Park, for something that happened 90 years ago, she can as well hop over to India for a cup of tea and lay a wreath at Jallianwalla Bagh while she is at it as step 2 on her royal agenda.

    Sound fair to you? If not, why not?
    Does it occur to you that the individual has control over their own destiny, that their office may or may not have politics to dance around, or do you like to demand what an individual could or should do based on moral equivalence made by you and not the circumstances in which the individual undertaking said tasks may find themselves?

    Yes it sounds fair to the average Joe, why shouldn't it, who wouldn't think that fair? But you (or I) wouldn't have a clue what politics are at play or what situation they find themselves in, so the moral equivalence argument is moot. Ponder what happens when you misunderstand a lack of action and speculate. Does that mean that QE2 is a inconsiderate bigot? Does it mean they are unfeeling? In the court of public opinion it is Mob rule. After all Mary Antoinette had an incestuous relationship with her son, organised orgies and all the rest of it, had a day to prepare for defence, then was executed.... there are no end of crackpots putting their moral equivalence arguments up against the woman.

    When having little idea on the duties discharged by the office (to be frank who really would), or what shapes them, it is best to steer clear of such arguments. They catch too many hypocrites. Again, not pointing the finger at you (and I did afford you the courtesy before) - that is the belief I hold about subscribing to that sorta smack.
    Last edited by Chunder; 15 Jun 11, at 13:42.
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  6. #66
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    vsdoc - I realise the reply is haphazard, you will have to grant me leave on this topic as my plate is very full at present so to speak Sometime next week at the earliest. I'm still sceptical at present- the reason being is that many people, in their feeling, will find a label to fit the feeling. A week may change things given time to think about this a little more. VERY BUSY atm.
    Ego Numquam

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunder View Post
    vsdoc - I realise the reply is haphazard, you will have to grant me leave on this topic as my plate is very full at present so to speak Sometime next week at the earliest. I'm still sceptical at present- the reason being is that many people, in their feeling, will find a label to fit the feeling. A week may change things given time to think about this a little more. VERY BUSY atm.
    No I got the gist of what you said bro.

    1) You are not mad at me per se

    2) The queen went to Ireland and not to India not because she's a bigot, but because there were/might have been some behind the scenes politics involved.

    For the last time sir - I love Brits. I love England, and London is one of my favorite cities to visit. I have NO chip on my shoulder as to what happened. At the time I sure would have, but I was not there then.

    But I do believe it would be a nice touch for her as the ruling Monarch to come over to India in a similar manner.

    Lets see - it might still happen. Maybe Charles will come over when/if she abdicates.
    Last edited by vsdoc; 15 Jun 11, at 14:02.

  8. #68
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vsdoc View Post
    2) The queen went to Ireland and not to India not because she's a bigot, but because there were/might have been some behind the scenes politics involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by vsdoc
    f the Queen of England can go over for a visit of reconciliation to Ireland and lay a wreath at Croke Park, for something that happened 90 years ago, she can as well hop over to India for a cup of tea and lay a wreath at Jallianwalla Bagh while she is at it as step 2 on her royal agenda.

    Sound fair to you? If not, why not?
    There is also purpose. I see her going to Ireland as symbolic in the sense it signals significant progress of the peace process since the good friday agreement signed back in 1998. She presided over a good period of the N.Ireland unrest whereas she was yet to be born when the Jalianwalla bagh massacre occurred in 1919.

    India does not have anything approaching as major an outstanding issue with the British as the Irish have had. We've been free since 1947, they were still at it in 1997. So as to her visiting India i would be at loss about its purpose. Besides their DFID is sending over a billion quid in aid over the next three years. I'd take that over a royal visit anyday.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by vsdoc View Post
    If the Queen of England can go over for a visit of reconciliation to Ireland and lay a wreath at Croke Park, for something that happened 90 years ago, she can as well hop over to India for a cup of tea and lay a wreath at Jallianwalla Bagh while she is at it as step 2 on her royal agenda.

    Sound fair to you? If not, why not?
    I wonder if the Irish are going to send their President to apologize for the murder of her cousin The Lord Mountbatten, 82yr old Lady Brabourne and two young boys? I doubt it.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by vsdoc View Post
    Maybe Charles will come over when/if she abdicates.
    Abdicates? There is more chance of her abdicating than Tankie paying for a drink

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by vsdoc View Post
    Yes we know Dave. But to be fair, you do leave behind some good things for the bluddy natives. Royal Enfields for one.
    A touch of Kipling for you vsdoc


    Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face though they come from the ends of the earth!

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave lukins View Post
    I wonder if the Irish are going to send their President to apologize for the murder of her cousin The Lord Mountbatten, 82yr old Lady Brabourne and two young boys? I doubt it.
    You know i only recently learnt about that in a program on terrorism.

    What a sad end for a man with such an illustrous career

    Course we only know about him in his India days, there was a lot more to follow.

  13. #73
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    Syria troops 'raid town' near Turkey border

    Syrian troops have stormed into a town near the border with Turkey, reports say, as the government presses its campaign to crush a popular revolt.

    Witnesses and anti-government activists said tanks and soldiers swept into Bdama, making dozens of arrests.

    Thousands of Syrian people have arrived in the border area over the past week, escaping military action in the north.

    Turkey says some 10,000 have crossed over to its territory but many more are camping on the Syrian side.

    The UK on Saturday advised against all travel to Syria and urged its nationals to leave as soon as possible.

    Residents said the army moved into Bdama, about 2km (1.2 miles) from the Turkish border, early on Saturday morning, firing machine guns and setting fire to buildings.

    "They came at 7am to Bdama," said Saria Hammouda, a lawyer living in the border town.

    "I counted nine tanks, 10 armoured carriers, 20 jeeps and 10 buses. I saw shabbiha (pro-government fighters) setting fire to two houses," she added.

    'Continued brutality'
    Activists say Bdama has become a vital supply point for the thousands of people who have fled their homes and are camped out near the Turkish border.

    Continue reading the main story

    In pictures: Life in refugee camps
    Rami Abdulrahman, of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, told Reuters: "Bdama's residents don't dare take bread to the refugees and the refugees are fearful of arrests if they go into Bdama for food."

    Bdama is in the same region as the town of Jisr al-Shughour, where a recent army campaign restored government control.

    The army said it was pursuing "armed groups" who had seized Jisr al-Shughour and killed more than 100 security personnel. Other reports said there had been a mutiny among security forces in the town.

    The authorities have called on people who fled the fighting to return home, but the town is reported to be almost deserted.

    On Saturday, Turkey for the first time allowed journalists into a refugee camp for people who have fled neighbouring Syria in the last two weeks.

    Some refugees spoke of detentions, torture and beatings by Syrian troops.

    An elderly refugee who gave his name as Adem told Reuters news agency: "They passed electricity through our toes. I was tortured, too. They asked for the names of people who had participated in the demonstrations."

    Continue reading the main story
    Syria's protests mapped


    Map with footage from inside Syria
    Inside Syria with the stranded refugees
    President Bashar al-Assad is facing the gravest threat to his family's 40-year rule, as unrest that first erupted in March in the south of the country has now engulfed the north and threatens to spread east towards Syria's border with Iraq.

    The government crackdown has brought widespread international condemnation.

    US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, writing in the pan-Arab London-based Asharq al-Awsat newspaper on Saturday, said military action would not quell the momentum for change in Syria.

    The regime's "continued brutality may allow [President Assad] to delay the change that is under way in Syria, it will not reverse it," she wrote.

    The UN says that at least 1,100 people have died since protests began, but Syrian rights groups put the overall death toll in Syria at 1,297 civilians and 340 security force members.

    Syria has prevented foreign journalists, including those from the BBC, from entering the country, making it difficult to independently verify reports from there.

    Activists and witnesses said security forces had opened fire on demonstrators in several locations on Friday, killing at least 19 people.
    I am confused Turkey is so quiet.
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  14. #74
    tankie Military Professional tankie's Avatar
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    The Q now is , when does the un intervene


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  15. #75
    tankie Military Professional tankie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave lukins View Post
    Abdicates? There is more chance of her abdicating than Tankie paying for a drink

    Pffffffftttt Lukins , do one , my nickname round barrow is scattercash , the unemployed mans friend , go see tankie , tells jokes n buy beer ( u believe that if ya wish )


    Trust gets you killed, love gets you hurt, and being REAL gets you hated.

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