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Thread: Syrian Civil War Developments

  1. #2581
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    Kurds are more valuable to us than Turkey. We need to start pulling our assets including nukes out of Turkey.

  2. #2582
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Kurds are more valuable to us than Turkey. We need to start pulling our assets including nukes out of Turkey.
    I like the Kurds too, but I respectfully disagree. My views are more or less in line with what Gunny said earlier. To each his own.

  3. #2583
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Kurds are more valuable to us than Turkey. We need to start pulling our assets including nukes out of Turkey.
    it is YPG/PKK, not Kurds.

    if you can afford to alienate Turkey for like a long years..well go ahead. (that would include me personally btw) Turks will NEVER forget that.


    but take note that US is prefering a terrorist organisation to their NATO ally and long term partner just because YPG/PKK served them for a short time.


    ISIS is already doomed...


    still before choosing PKK over Turkey, just compare these...

    how big was the threat of ISIS to US or any other Western country?

    how big IS the threat of PKK to Turkey?


    please also note that despite my dislike of Erdogan, I too will be offended by this.

    i say so to give you a hint of what will the result of this.
    Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

  4. #2584
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Overall, I agree with the sentiment you've expressed K.

    Erdogan, like all leaders, is just a temporal phenomenon. The Turkish nation will outlive him. While I have my disagreements with Turkish policy and thoroughly detest Erdogan as an individual, his time will pass, within our lifetime, and there's no sense in completely alienating the entire nation of Turkey for limited short-term gains. ISIS has been mostly been defeated, and it's time to take a step back and re-gain perspective.

    That being said, Erdogan is not an innocent man, and is clearly kicking quite a few own goals with regards to foreign policy, relationships with allies, turning a blind eye to and supporting Islamist/jihadist groups, and that's on him.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 30 Mar 18, at 14:27.

  5. #2585
    FreeGeneral Senior Contributor Big K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    Overall, I agree with the sentiment you've expressed K.

    Erdogan, like all leaders, is just a temporal phenomenon. The Turkish nation will outlive him. While I have my disagreements with Turkish policy and thoroughly detest Erdogan as an individual, his time will pass, within our lifetime, and there's no sense in completely alienating the entire nation of Turkey for limited short-term gains. ISIS has been mostly been defeated, and it's time to take a step back and re-gain perspective.

    That being said, Erdogan is not an innocent man, and is clearly kicking quite a few own goals with regards to foreign policy, relationships with allies, turning a blind eye to and supporting Islamist/jihadist groups, and that's on him.
    You know very well my feelings towards Erdogan.

    it is us who are trapped here....
    Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

  6. #2586
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big K View Post
    You know very well my feelings towards Erdogan.

    it is us who are trapped here....
    Indeed, I do.

    You can always escape for a moment here on WAB. :-)

  7. #2587
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big K View Post
    it is YPG/PKK, not Kurds.

    if you can afford to alienate Turkey for like a long years..well go ahead. (that would include me personally btw) Turks will NEVER forget that.
    Turkey Turing US servicemen and women into virtual hostages at Incilik was the final straw for me with your government.


    but take note that US is prefering a terrorist organisation to their NATO ally and long term partner just because YPG/PKK served them for a short time.
    I've not seen any proof that the YPG has any designs on Turkey.


    ISIS is already doomed...
    No thanks to Turkey


    still before choosing PKK over Turkey, just compare these...
    I don't care about the PKK, even though it was your government that derailed the peace process.

    how big was the threat of ISIS to US or any other Western country?

    how big IS the threat of PKK to Turkey?
    Turkey needs to do something to stop the systemic alienation of its Kurdish population. Repression feeds separatist views.


    please also note that despite my dislike of Erdogan, I too will be offended by this.
    Killing Kurds in Syria doesn't hurt the PKK. Threatening to use force on Americans in Syria reminds me of a Greek saying said to an Army marching out of Anatolia and thinking it could write its own rules, "molon labe". Your government threatened war if we wouldn't let them slaughter our allies.

    i say so to give you a hint of what will the result of this.
    I say to anyone threatening war with the US, I will back my flag.

  8. #2588
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    My opinion, the best strategy is just to practice forbearance. Men like Erdogan, their egos eventually grow so out of control that they either self-destruct or lose power one way or another. Alienate the Turkish people, and they will remain in Mr. Erdogan's grasp for who knows how long, and possibly even ideological successors of his who may not have otherwise even come into existence.

    Mr. Erdogan's power base thus far has been built on delivering economic benefits to formerly lower class Turks, by bringing in millions of Turks into the middle class, who mostly originally come from poorer, more religious, rural backgrounds. Having secured enough support from the population, this gives him a free hand of sorts to do things we may not care for in the West.

    I do think though that this newly minted middle class has the potential to moderate more and more as time goes on, and even if they don't, their children will.

    Again, today's AKP supporters may well become CHP supporters, and if not them, then their children. I think the idea of attacking or playing chicken with Turkey is a bit like playing with fire. The so-called "solution" to what may very well be an immediate short-term problem, a problem that may otherwise pass if handled more aptly, could have devastating consequences in the long-term and produce the opposite effect, with unintended consequences in the future that are possibly an order of magnitude or more worse.

    And that brings me to the problem with us Americans. We see an immediate problem, "I have a hammer, that looks like a nail", and instead of practicing forbearance and exercising patience, we want to immediately go up in arms. We go off half-cocked, and our short-sightedness is one of our greatest flaws. And for most of us, history may as well have, for all practical purpose, just begun the moment we first learned of something on cable news.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 01 Apr 18, at 03:22.

  9. #2589
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    Anyone have any thoughts on Trump's recent comments that the US is going to leave Syria "very soon"?

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    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Anyone have any thoughts on Trump's recent comments that the US is going to leave Syria "very soon"?
    I really don't pay attention to anything that Trump says anymore. Mostly just hot air and BS. I just pay attention to what happens, depending on whether it's in the "give an f or not" category.

  11. #2591
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Kurds are more valuable to us than Turkey. We need to start pulling our assets including nukes out of Turkey.
    What?

    What value do the Kurds have in the long term? They occupy a little landlocked rump state and helped fight a low order threat like ISIS. They have certainly been helpful in the near term, but while a mutually beneficial arrangement existed when there were jihadists with dreams of grandeur to fight what can they bring to a real conflict with a great or even middle power? They don't have a professional military, no developed industry or infrastructure to speak of, and without any ports to bring in heavy equipment the West isn't really in a position to build them up into a state capable of defending themselves either.

    Turkey's location alone makes it extremely valuable as an ally and it's sizable military is no slouch either. It's perfectly situated to influence a conflict with either Russia or Iran. It's far more important to keep Turkey as a real member of the alliance than to play around in Iraq or Syria the way we have been for the last 30 years.

  12. #2592
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Full article: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43648968

    Trumplomacy: Can US quit Syria 'very soon'? It's complicated

    The US is not a main player in Syria's crowded battlefields, but it is an important one.

    American forces and their local allies control a large and strategically important area in the eastern part of the country in which they have mostly, but not entirely, defeated the Islamic State (IS) group.

    The White House has now said the US military will complete its mission to eliminate IS remnants, but says that shouldn't take long.

    That's as far as it's gone to clarify matters since US President Donald Trump seemed to be rewriting Syria policy on the fly by declaring the US would exit "like, very soon".

    Despite the success of the anti-IS campaign, ending it won't be as rapid as Trump would like. Remaining IS fighters have proven tenacious.

    Crucially, America's key local partners, the Kurds, have abandoned the battle against the Islamic State terror group to help their brethren in another part of Syria under attack by another US ally, Turkey.

    It's complicated. Ground operations against IS were put on hold last month.

    But even if there comes a moment called "Victory", the Pentagon fears that a complete withdrawal of US troops would leave a dangerous void.

    It would in effect cede US-controlled territory to the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and its Russian backers, betraying America's Syrian allies and neutralising its efforts to influence a post-war order that takes into account Washington's interests and those of its regional allies.

    It would disrupt the administration's strategy to help stabilise the devastated battle zones in order to prevent an IS comeback - by providing basic services so that people can return to their homes. The Pentagon and the Department of State are in lock-step on this approach.

    And it would allow Iran to expand its already considerable influence in Syria and the region, facilitating Tehran's efforts to establish an overland supply route through Iraq and Syria to its allies in Beirut, the powerful Hezbollah movement.

    This is of great concern to Israel, which fears an Iranian military presence on its borders, and to Saudi Arabia, Iran's biggest regional rival.

    The Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman has called the American troop presence in Syria the last bulwark against Iran's regional expansion. Israel has publicly held its council, but can't be expected to for long.

    Foreign policy hawks in Washington who've applauded Trump's assault on the Iran nuclear deal haven't minced words: "Trump cannot have a serious Iran strategy if he allows Tehran to win in Syria," Mark Dubowitz, chief executive of Foundation for Defence of Democracies, told the Wall Street Journal.

    Trump may have good reasons for wanting to pull out of a messy Mideast war, aside from the fact that he promised to.

  13. #2593
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    To leave the murderous Assad regime in power is contrary to every international or moral law. The lot of them belong at the court in the Hague and to allow them to continue in power encourages other would be mass murderers.

  14. #2594
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    To leave the murderous Assad regime in power is contrary to every international or moral law. The lot of them belong at the court in the Hague and to allow them to continue in power encourages other would be mass murderers.
    There is no international law nor moral law that obligates any country to bring the Assad regime to the Hague.

  15. #2595
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    https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/custo.../v1_rul_rule74


    Article I. General Obligations

    1. Each State Party to this Convention undertakes never under any circumstances:

    (a) To develop, produce, otherwise acquire, stockpile or retain chemical weapons, or transfer, directly or indirectly, chemical weapons to anyone;

    (b) To use chemical weapons;

    (c) To engage in any military preparations to use chemical weapons;

    (d) To assist, encourage or induce, in any way, anyone to engage in any activity prohibited to a State Party under this Convention.

    2. Each State Party undertakes to destroy chemical weapons it owns or possesses, or that are located in any place under its jurisdiction or control, in accordance with the provisions of this Convention.

    3. Each State Party undertakes to destroy all chemical weapons it abandoned on the territory of another State Party, in accordance with the provisions of this Convention.

    4. Each State Party undertakes to destroy any chemical weapons production facilities it owns or possesses, or that are located in any place under its jurisdiction or control, in accordance with the provisions of this Convention.

    5. Each State Party undertakes not to use riot control agents as a method of warfare.

    Syria is a signatory: https://www.opcw.org/chemical-weapon...l-obligations/
    Last edited by snapper; 05 Apr 18, at 19:06.

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