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  • Ukraine Updates 2012etc

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/04/wo...bill.html?_r=1

    Lawmakers in Ukraine Approve Bill on Language
    By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN
    Published: July 3, 2012

    KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian Parliament, acting unexpectedly, approved a bill on Tuesday reaffirming Ukrainian as the country’s sole national language, but allowing local and regional governments to grant official status to Russian and other languages spoken by at least 10 percent of their residents.

    The question of granting Russian official status as a second state language had reopened an emotionally charged debate in Ukraine, a former Soviet republic where millions of people speak Russian as their native tongue.

    Many people are far less comfortable speaking Ukrainian, especially in the eastern part of the country, the base of support for President Viktor F. Yanukovich, a native Russian speaker.

    But opponents said the measure would violate the Constitution and infringe on Ukrainian’s position as the national tongue.

    Furious at both the bill and the manner in which it was pushed through, hundreds of demonstrators gathered on Tuesday night outside Ukraine House, a public building in central Kiev. Many appeared prepared to camp out, and platoons of riot officers were deployed nearby.

    In May, the dispute over the measure set off a brawl in Parliament, with lawmakers throwing punches and ripping clothes. There was some brief scuffling again on Tuesday when the Party of Regions, which holds the majority, surprised the opposition by announcing that a vote would be held on the bill immediately rather than later this month.
    I see this kinda as a bit odd, yes its prior to elections but it doesn't solve certain aspects and implementation of it across areas where it would be used the most. A start I guess.

    National betrayal
    I disagree with what they write here because its a bit absurd on the ground.

    National betrayal
    July 5, 2012, 11:22 p.m. | Editorial — by Kyiv Post

    Kyiv Post

    Pro-presidential lawmakers divided a country when they elevated the Russian language on July 3.

    Anyone who has spent time in Ukraine knows that the Russian language remains dominant over Ukrainian. Russian is not a minority language. Russian does not require special protection by law.

    In fact, the Ukrainian language – suppressed for centuries – could use a boost, along with a healthy dose of national identity and pride. Moreover, picking a fight over language – as politicians have done this week – is not what Ukrainians want. People remained most concerned about the economy, introducing rule of law to their nation and becoming a full-fledged member of the European family of nations. The people want their leaders to combat corruption, bureaucracy, cronyism and nepotism – not be the instigators of these pervasive problems.
    The law claims to uphold Ukrainian as the national tongue while protecting minorities. But by giving equal status in regions of Ukraine where more than 10 percent of residents speak “minority” languages, it will allow Russian to remain entrenched, threatening use of Ukrainian.

    There are only two parties of interest that will benefit from this scenario – Yanukovych and his oligarch supporters, who run the nation as a private fiefdom, and Russian President Vladimir Putin, who loves tripping up Ukraine’s progress as a nation every chance he gets.

    Any sensitive and sophisticated reading of history would lead politicians to encourage the wider use and popularity of the Ukrainian language as a pillar of sovereignty. Ukrainians, by virtue of geography and hard realities, will always find it useful to learn other languages – especially international ones, such as English and Russian.

    But given Ukraine’s troubled history of foreign domination, the divisive path that Yanukovych has chosen could lead to cultural and economic disintegration.
    My feeling is thus before the elections occur there will be an entrenchment and force majeur of Russian to solidify it as an official language in the 11 regions+. Once that happens getting rid of it will not be possible. Which is a good thing cause its what people are used to in everyday life so the government should use it with those whom use it...

    What is kind of interesting is how this will effect things on the margin. I think Klitchko was the wisest with skirting the issue and saying economy matter more because that limits things to reality. Almost every other oposition party to Regions condemned it which is not a wise move because quiet a few of them will try to get the electorate in those regions which most likely supports this law. Might matter in elections but marginally I figure.

    Political analysts split on language law

    Ukrainian political analysts are split regarding their estimations of the situation over the adoption of the law on principles of state language policy.

    Director of the Kyiv-based Center for Political and Conflict Studies Mykhailo Pohrebynsky said at a press conference on Friday that about 20% of Ukrainians support the position of "ousting the Russian language from official use" in Ukraine.

    "All that the opposition is currently doing is defending the position of a minority of Ukrainian citizens, while a majority calls for raising the status of the Russian language. All this hysteria, hunger strikes and so forth are the result of this, and I think this is an example of totalitarian thinking," the analyst said.

    Head of the Penta Center for Political Analysis Volodymyr Fesenko said that the language issue had led to the creation of a parliamentary and socio-political crisis in the country.

    "The language issue has to be considered. I am sure that we have to conduct the modernization of language legislation, because it is obsolete," Fesenko said.

    However, he said, political parties have to seek a compromise in this regard.

    "We cannot ignore the interests and needs of the Russian-speaking population, otherwise, politicians will resume the division of the country into Russian-speaking and Ukrainian-speaking citizens," the analyst said.
    Longer term I think this actually makes Ukraine more stable and less fractured on language issue. Accommodation always makes things less rigid and more flexible.
    Yanukovych does not rule out carrying out of early parliamentary elections : Ukraine News by UNIAN

    I don't think this is it yet because it has to be signed. But it probably will because otherwise there is backlash the other way around but I am sure protesting will go on for or against it either way.
    Originally from Sochi, Russia.

  • #2
    10% is low threshold IMO, wonder what would be the cost of implementing it.

    From the first hand experience over here with the Albanians, the Russians wont speak Ukrainian, ever.
    Last edited by Doktor; 07 Jul 12,, 22:50.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Doktor View Post
      10% is low threshold IMO, wonder what would be the cost of implementing it.

      From the first hand experience over here with the Albanians, the Russians wont speak Ukrainian, ever.
      I don't think you get it. Ukranian and Russian are basically the same language for the most part. The problem is that the version of Ukranian that was being implemented across the country is from western Ukraine it is unrecognizable to most Ukranians and Russians alike because it has a LOT of Polish loan words.

      The normal Ukranian that is least effected by both Russian and Polish is in the Sumy region of the country, perfectly understandable to me etc... the problem is that the nationalists pushed their version because that is where they are from. Ergo if you notice the polling 20% want the law thrown out and most of those are from Western Ukraine (Lviv etc...)

      My grandma was from Zhitomer she said passed the oblast border people spoke differently and she had trouble understanding them because a lot of words they used werent know to her. She spoke Ukranian very understandable to me its like Russian just village type with Os instead of As and certain older root words.

      Even western Ukranian I can sort of get just not so much since a lot of it is Polish mixed in.

      There is a link that says costs will be in the billions of dollars but the reality is probably not that large. Since most of the officials speak and paperwork can be easily redone to be in both languages the costs are negligible. For the most part people who want to make a point will have 'translators' and it will be fine.

      ---

      Interesting thing if it gets signed in and it should is what happens when someone else comes to power. Because not having something and getting rid of something is very different.

      The other thing is there were enough signatures to have a referendum to add is a second official language to the constitution but doubt that happens.
      Originally from Sochi, Russia.

      Comment


      • #4
        Macedonian and Serbian languages are very similar.

        In former Yugoslavia, the Serbs here spoke Serbian and not one bothered to speak Macedonian, even after 30 years here. And I speak on institutional level, not at home.
        I don't blame the Serbs for doing so, Serbian was official language on federal level and everyone here understood them, unlike Slovenia ;)
        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

        Comment


        • #5
          http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/07/wo...ss&emc=rss

          Volodymyr M. Lytvyn, the chairman of Parliament, has refused to sign the bill, effectively blocking it from reaching President Viktor F. Yanukovich, who could sign it into law. Instead, Mr. Lytvyn submitted his resignation, challenging the Party of Regions, which holds the majority, to choose a new chairman who would let the bill go forward.

          The measure was adopted Tuesday in a move by the Party of Regions that was so unexpected that Mr. Lytvyn was not even present for the vote.

          Debate over the language bill has been so emotionally charged that it led to a brawl in Parliament in May. Hundreds of people demonstrated against the adoption of the bill this week, leading to violent clashes with riot police officers.

          Another big protest was expected on Friday, but it was essentially called off once it became clear that Parliament would adjourn without replacing Mr. Lytvyn or letting the bill go forward.

          Vadim Kolesnichenko, a member of the Party of Regions faction in Parliament, who comes from the largely Russian-speaking Crimea region, said the majority refused to consider Mr. Lytvyn’s resignation to prevent the chairman from scoring political points.
          Maneuvering in relation to it is due to elections being very close and a bit populistically charged issue. Also the chairman of the Rada has to sign it befor it goes to Yanukovich to be signed into law. So this issue is still sort of not done yet.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_u...ntary_election
          Last edited by cyppok; 08 Jul 12,, 17:07.
          Originally from Sochi, Russia.

          Comment


          • #6
            it wont change a thing for ordinary ppl, more than half of ukraine population speaks Russian, (mostly east half) even most of those in the east that were born after 1991 still speak Russian, i was there not too long ago, in few cities in ua,

            Russian and Ukrainian are similar, but on the level of simple conversation,or on school program level anything more isn't so easy and understandable for those that don't speak it. i can guarantee if someone that speaks Russian will get in a village in west Ukraine, he'll only understand 1\4 of words.

            something similar we have here, knowing simple English is enough to communicate in a store, or participate in simple conversation, but as soon as you open nyt newspaper, or read some legal letter, it suddenly becomes a different language.
            even thou it is the same language.
            Last edited by omon; 08 Jul 12,, 19:56.
            "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

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            • #7
              Originally posted by omon View Post
              it wont change a thing for ordinary ppl, more than half of ukraine population speaks Russian, (mostly east half) even most of those in the east that were born after 1991 still speak Russian, i was there not too long ago, in few cities in ua,

              Russian and Ukrainian are similar, but on the level of simple conversation,or on school program level anything more isn't so easy and understandable for those that don't speak it. i can guarantee if someone that speaks Russian will get in a village in west Ukraine, he'll only understand 1\4 of words.

              something similar we have here, knowing simple English is enough to communicate in a store, or participate in simple conversation, but as soon as you open nyt newspaper, or read some legal letter, it suddenly becomes a different language.
              even thou it is the same language.
              I kinda mentioned this but central Ukraine is pretty understandable all the way to the old Pre WW1 border which was close to the Zhitomer oblast. Western Ukraine uses different words from the rest of Ukraine most of those from Poland etc but the rest Sumy through Zhitomer are understandable you might not get 100% but you will understand 75% or so ...
              Originally from Sochi, Russia.

              Comment


              • #8
                From what I read on kommersant.ua I get the following.

                Lytvin the speak has submitted his resignation letter, if he does not remove in within 15(by July 19th he tended it on July 4th) days he resigns his post and they could nominate someone to speaker of Rada to sign the law.
                Rada is on vacation until Sep 4th but they will convene on July 31st for a session of some other aspects.

                Outcome A) Lytvin resignes he is replaced with someone whom signs the law and it goes to Yanukovich and he signs it in.
                Outcome B) Lytvin does not resign, removes his petition and this complicates things further, with snap elections possible.
                Outcome C) Lytvin steps down someone else becomes speaker they push the law through.

                Undercurrent which people have ignored is that there was electoral reform splitting representation into 50% direct elected representatives via local okrugs(districts) and 50% proportional via party lists. In my mind this means that the least Party of Regions can get even if they are horrendously unpopular is about 140 reps. However... if their play on nationalism they will split things into realistic workable opposition.

                UDAR Klitchko the boxer party is polling about 8-9%, Yuschenko's nationalists are probably going to be gone replaced by Svoboda(very hard line nationalists) and BYUT(similar to party of regions, businessmen, crooks and whatnot but pragmatic centrists)


                If the law goes through it will probably pass into Sep-Oct right before the elections.

                Significant regional differences in the support of parties persist // Razumkov Centre
                If elections to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine took place in June, the five percent threshold could be overcome by the Party of Regions – 27.6%, “Bat’kivschyna” – 25.6%, “Udar” – 9.7% and the Communist Party – 7.1%. This is evidenced by the results of the poll conducted by the Razumkov Centre and Il’ko Kucheriv Democratic Initiatives Foundation – reported the news agency “Ukrinform”.

                “The main political forces competing in elections had little impact on these figures last year, the level of their support by the electorate has scarcely changed”, said Mykhailo Mishchenko, Deputy Director of the Razumkov Centre Sociological Service.

                Meanwhile, the researcher added, there are political forces that are gradually getting on the right side of voters. “Speaking about 'Go, Ukraine!' party we see increasing support of voters in this spring”, said the expert. If the elections were held in June, this political party would get 4.6%. Thus “Svoboda” could expect 3.1%, “Civic Position” – 2.6%.

                The researcher also mentioned that there are regional differences in support of various political forces. “Bat’kivschyna” party (formerly led by now imprisoned Yulia Tymoshenko) is the most supported in the West (40%) and Centre (26%) of the country and somewhat less in the South – (9.5%) and East (8%). The Party of Regions, by contrast, has the greatest support in the South (36%) and East (30.5%), while in the Centre (14%) and West (8%) this party enjoys less support. The level of support of “Udar” increases from East to West, with the greatest number of supporters in the West (14%), in the Center – 9%, in the South – 4%, in the East – 5%. The Communists overcome the electoral threshold only in the East (8%) and South (19%), while and in the West it does not gain even 1%, and “Svoboda”, by contrast, overcomes this threshold only in the West – 9.5%.

                The last paragraph gives the percentage out of the total number of voters, while previously – out of those willing to come to the elections.
                Originally from Sochi, Russia.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                  Serbian was official language on federal level
                  Serbo-Croatian.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by kato View Post
                    Serbo-Croatian.
                    Erm, no.

                    Yugoslavia had 4 official languages.


                    In art 246 from the Constitution of SFRY (1974) it says:
                    "In SFRY in official use are the languages of the peoples of Yugoslavia. The languages of the nationalities are also in use in the areas where they live".

                    Since there is no Serbo-Croatian nation, there is no Serbo-Croatian language :red:

                    In the art 243 from the Constitution of SFRY (1974) it says:
                    "In the armed forces of SFRY, in accordance with the Constitution of SFRY, the equality of languages and alphabets of the peoples and nationalities of Yugoslavia is guaranteed.

                    In the command process and in the process of military training, one of the languages of the peoples of Yugoslavia can be used..."

                    Money:



                    Dinarа - Croatian
                    Динара - Serbian
                    Dinarjev - Slovenian
                    Динари - Macedonian
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by Doktor; 11 Jul 12,, 10:27.
                    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Croatian and Serbian are really just dialects of the same language... with less difference than between even neighboring dialects of German.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Don't think you will find anyone in the said countries who will agree with you ;)
                        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I was there half a dozen times in the late 80s, back then no one minded ;)
                          (in fact, i was in Plitvice Park just 4 months before the whole thing got hot)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well you were pouring DMs, they'd be Martians
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Curious Developments

                              original link
                              Ú.Óêðàèíà-Ãàçåòà - Óêðàèíó ðàñêëàäûâàþò ïî ÷àñòÿì
                              and translated via google translate
                              Google Translate

                              The jist of the story is thus:

                              This is a power player voicing yet another 'attempt' at federalizing Ukraine into multiple constituent parts. There were two prior attempts one in 1991 and one in 2004.
                              Both of those politicians "died" one got shot several times accidentally the other died in a auto accident.

                              Now both of those guys were very very very popular in their respective regions.

                              This one is eh, he seems like a very connected dude. If you read the story Putin came to visit him and is his daughter's godfather basically. So you sort of get his lean and yet not really.

                              Odd thing is right now the political situation does not give anyone 300 votes to change the constitution and/or call a referendum for this to go through. Changing the political map of oblasts' is extremely radical in a sense. There are an insane amount of interests to keep things as are, and quiet a few to change them to fit their modes of political/business interests. The mention two positions changing oblast borders and keeping them the same and just putting them in a federal subject.


                              1991 guy wanted to create a united region in Western Ukraine which would pool several oblasts together.
                              2004 Kushnarev wanted a Republic of South-East Ukraine formed
                              both of those are on the bottom it just doesn't mention they 'died'.
                              ...


                              Right now it seems there may be a radical shift in the 2012 elections with Yushenkos party most likely being out.
                              Regions getting between 15%-25% (somewhat unpopular now but the switch to 50/50 local gives quiet a few popular people in their locale to get elected which they have a lot of)

                              ByUt 25-40% (Yulias party merged with Front of Change with Yatezenuk which had about a 10% rating)

                              Udar ~10% (Klitchko the boxer elder brother very popular in the Central region and Kiev)
                              Originally from Sochi, Russia.

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