The Queen shakes hands with IRA leader

[tantalus]

According to McGuiness, he mentioned Mountbatten to the Queen

Mr McGuinness said he would not detail exactly what he said during the eight minute discussion in the Lyric Theatre, which the Duke of Edinburgh also attended, or how the Queen responded.

Referring to the assassination off the coast of Co Sligo, he said he told the royals that he recognised they had lost a relative.

“I said to the Queen and the Duke they too had lost a loved one,” he said.

Earl Mountbatten, who was also the Duke’s uncle, was killed on board a boat off Mullaghmore by an IRA gang using a radio controlled bomb.

One of the earl’s twin grandsons, Nicholas (14) and Paul Maxwell (15) a local teenager employed to help on the boat, also died in the explosion

McGuinness 'discussed Queen's loss' - The Irish Times - Sun, Jul 01, 2012

There are rumours circulating of the possibility of a full IRA apology for all deaths they caused during the troubles, including British army. McGuiness however denies any knowledge and says there is nobody available to apologise as the IRA as it is disbanded. It is worth mentoning that McGuiness frequently denies any involment in being part of the IRA ledership in the later years of the Troubles.

Speaking on RTÉ’s Saturday Night with Miriam, Northern Ireland’s Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness said he did not know where the SBP story was originating from “because the IRA are gone; I don’t know who’s going to [apologise]“.

McGuinness dismisses report of IRA apology · TheJournal.ie

[Doktor]

DeKirk meeting Mandela

Her majesty meeting Heinrich Lubke (he built Peemenmunde), she also met with Tito, Emperor Hirohito, Walter Scheel (radar operator on a Luftwaffe night fighter who shot down British bombers)....

May I ask you how and why Tito got on that list? Unlike the others, Tito and his partisans were on the winning side of WWII.

[tankie]

should never have been down to her Maj to shake his hand but the sec of state for N/I .

However , onwards n upwards hopefully .

I understand what your all saying, hence my earlier post

Now that worm macguinnes says theres no'one left in the IRA to apologise , WTF is wrong with himself or fungus faced Adams to do it , ???????????? there's the 1st kick in the gonads after the meeting with the Queen , the arrogant bastard's dont give a flying #### , this is his way of currying back favour he lost when republicans didnt like the meeting as well ,how does he know there's nobody left ???????? he has to be well in with hands on to know that , he's lower than a snakes testis . And still a republican he says .??

[tankie]

Handshakes help make sure Northern Ireland wont be your children's war.

Lets hope your correct z .

[dave lukins]

Dave, Tankie, I don't get it, you both willingly put your flesh on the lien and your nation pledged national suicide to defend the children and grandchildren of the pilots who bombed Southern England and butchered the paras in Market Garden, themselves the children of the machine gunners at the Somme- from the Soviets... Your own parents took part in that war as part of a nation that targeted civilians on a scale the IRA could never hope to duplicate- was Dresden given a call saying there is a bomber raid coming? Their parents manned a fleet that starved millions.

Part of the healing process for Northern Ireland means letting bygones be bygones. I understand that WWI and II were not your war, Northern Ireland was, but handshakes help make sure Northern Ireland wont be your children's war.

I don't suppose Hirohito got a telegram saying there is a couple of nasties on the way either. There is a difference in fighting uniform to uniform and fighting terrorist who hide behind womens skirts and blow up innocent women and kids and ambush buses and machine gun unarmed victims. N.Ireland is still very much split and the shootings and bombings are still going on but at a lesser scale. There are still no-go areas for the police and tensions are still at boiling point every "Marching Season". Servicemen who served, who had to pick up the body parts, and wash the blood away will never call this handshake a move forward but an insult to their dead and injured. As Tankie will confirm, there are very very few who think this was a good thing and they are not holding back on their views. To us it was almost like saying it's over, thank you very much for being good boys and let's forget the last 30 plus yrs of murder and mayhem. The Powers that be might see that as a nice Jubilee gesture but we don't.. and never will.

[chanjyj]

I think what most here have overlooked is that it takes at least a generation for the wounds to heal. You can't compare WW2 w/ the troubles.
Neither can you compare uniformed armies against "terrorist" organisations.

Most comparison here so far are flawed, IMHO. About the only one which can be compared is the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.

[snapper]

How many handshakes did his victims get? Nah bo**ocks.

[zraver]

There is a difference in fighting uniform to uniform and fighting terrorist who hide behind womens skirts and blow up innocent women and kids and ambush buses and machine gun unarmed victims.

No there isn't uniform v uniform or not war is nasty. In WWII the Japanese and Germans both engaged in levels of brutality that far exceeded what ever protections the uniform provided. The queen met with people who took part or commanded those actions. From the SS machine gunning prisoners to the Japanese beheading them with swords the queen decided to move forward and let the war end. Compare British losses in WWII to the troubles, over the past three decades less than 3600 people died in Northern Ireland- the UK suffers more traffic fatalities than that every 2 years. If the UK can forgive 100x more dead (nearly 200x combined dead and wounded) in WWII, then she can do so for Northern Ireland.

Chanjyj,

I think what most here have overlooked is that it takes at least a generation for the wounds to heal.

Then why did the BAOR work along side former members of the Wehrmacht in the 50's and 60's- in some cases served under them?

You can't compare WW2 w/ the troubles.

Why not? Unless your arguing that the level of intensity in NI was so low as to not count, which ignores the very real experiences of the veterans. War is war and each side thinks they are the good guys and the other side are complete rotters. Sometimes the other side is complete rotters, but more often than not has some legit grievances.

Neither can you compare uniformed armies against "terrorist" organisations.

Question, who has killed more civilians- uniformed militiaries or terrorists? The answer is obvious, equally obvious that one of the best ways to end insurgencies peacefully is to encourage the terrorists and soldiers to set aside the guns and engage in the political process. Probably the best recent example is the Sunni Awakening in Iraq. The Sunni insurgents killed more Americans than the PIRA killed British troops but in the end the US and the Sunnis teamed up to kill off AQI. Those former fighters are now part of the Iraqi army and their leaders are in the Iraqi government.

[chanjyj]

Chanjyj,

Then why did the BAOR work along side former members of the Wehrmacht in the 50's and 60's- in some cases served under them?
I believe the circumstances were different. IMHO at that point in time the USSR has emerged as a common enemy. IRA and the British forces have none - not that I know of, at lest (terrorism is not one of them certainly).

Why not? Unless your arguing that the level of intensity in NI was so low as to not count, which ignores the very real experiences of the veterans. War is war and each side thinks they are the good guys and the other side are complete rotters. Sometimes the other side is complete rotters, but more often than not has some legit grievances.
I would not disagree with the experiences of veterans. My point is that one was a multi-national war with multiple alliances while the other was limited (to simplify it) into one small geographical area. You can't compare the 2 based on that.


Question, who has killed more civilians- uniformed militiaries or terrorists? The answer is obvious, equally obvious that one of the best ways to end insurgencies peacefully is to encourage the terrorists and soldiers to set aside the guns and engage in the political process. Probably the best recent example is the Sunni Awakening in Iraq. The Sunni insurgents killed more Americans than the PIRA killed British troops but in the end the US and the Sunnis teamed up to kill off AQI. Those former fighters are now part of the Iraqi army and their leaders are in the Iraqi government.

I think you have misunderstood me. My premise is that if you wish to compare the IRA and UK conflict to something, then it has to have at least some parallels. Maybe Kosovo. Maybe the Tamil Tigers. Maybe even Vietnam if you want to push it further.

[zraver]

Chanjyj,

I believe the circumstances were different. IMHO at that point in time the USSR has emerged as a common enemy. IRA and the British forces have none - not that I know of, at lest (terrorism is not one of them certainly).

41-45 it was UK/USSR v Germany and then from 45-91 is was Uk/Ger v USSR.... common enemy= political decisions.

I would not disagree with the experiences of veterans. My point is that one was a multi-national war with multiple alliances while the other was limited (to simplify it) into one small geographical area. You can't compare the 2 based on that.

For the squad of troopers the two are similar lots of boring patrols and some sharp actions maybe a big battle of two. The only real difference for veterans is the number of squads...

[chanjyj]

zraver, the discussion (from post 41 onwards) has started diverging from the original topic of the feelings of the the troops themselves to whether the it would have helped the healing process, to the healing process itself.

If we were talking about the troops yes sure, you're right but I was referring to the the larger picture and how comparisons between a world war and a regional (civil? can't think of an appropriate word) war wouldn't be appropriate.

[tankie]

Peace , yea right , I hope its not the start of more bloodshed .Seems like macguiness lied AGAIN about weapons handed in

Shots fired at police during Belfast rioting - Yahoo! News UK

[zraver]

Peace , yea right , I hope its not the start of more bloodshed .Seems like macguiness lied AGAIN about weapons handed in

Shots fired at police during Belfast rioting - Yahoo! News UK

10 shots from an unknown shooter, and of an unknown type- somewhere between firecracker and rifle by an orange-man or a green-man...

Perhaps the bigger question is why the government is escorting trouble makers into a neighborhood so they can cause trouble.

Reminds me of an old joke, a man is walking at night in Belfast when he is grabbed from behind and an Irish brogue whispers in his ear, Green err orange? The terrified man replies, "Niether I'm Jewish." To which there is a cackle, "well ain I the luckiest Arab in Belfast"...

Peace takes two sides and a government that wants peace.

[tankie]

10 shots from an unknown shooter, and of an unknown type- somewhere between firecracker and rifle by an orange-man or a green-man...

Perhaps the bigger question is why the government is escorting trouble makers into a neighborhood so they can cause trouble.

Reminds me of an old joke, a man is walking at night in Belfast when he is grabbed from behind and an Irish brogue whispers in his ear, Green err orange? The terrified man replies, "Niether I'm Jewish." To which there is a cackle, "well ain I the luckiest Arab in Belfast"...

Peace takes two sides and a government that wants peace.

Belfast is a city in the U/K they have every right to march wherever they want .

In the past a few shots at some guy called ferdinand caused millions of deaths .

The journey of a thousand miles starts with the 1st step. Or a war with the 1st shot .

The conflict will never end as long as Ireland remains dis-united .

[Officer of Engineers]

Jason,

Let the old war dogs be. It's their wounds. It's their scars. It's enough that they don't bite but they're still hurting from their wounds. Let them heal the best way they know how.