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Syrian Air Defenses down Turkish F-4

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  • Syrian Air Defenses down Turkish F-4

    I'm surprised no one posted this earlier. It happened several hours ago, but regardless.

    Turkey says it will take ‘steps’ after determining that Syria shot down missing jet

    BEIRUT — Turkey vowed to take “necessary steps” after concluding that Syria had shot down a Turkish fighter jet near the two countries’ border Friday, sending tensions soaring in the already fraught region.

    In a terse statement issued early Saturday after an emergency security meeting called by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish government said that an F-4 fighter jet that went missing over the southern Turkish province of Hatay had been brought down by Syria. The statement said Turkey “will make its final position known once the evidence is uncovered and will determinedly take necessary steps.”

    The Turkish military said Friday that it had lost contact with the plane shortly before noon. A hunt was underway in the eastern Mediterranean for the jet’s two missing pilots, and Syrian vessels were helping Turkish ships and helicopters with the search, Erdogan told journalists earlier in the evening.

    After Turkey, a NATO member, confirmed the shooting, a Syrian military spokesman issued a statement acknowledging that it had shot the plane down at 11:40 am, after it approached Syria at low altitude from the sea.

    “An unidentified aerial target violated Syrian airspace, coming from the west at a very low altitude and at high speed over territorial waters, so the Syrian anti-air defenses counteracted with anti-aircraft artillery,” said the statement, carried by the official news agency SANA. The plane was a kilometer (half-mile) from the Syrian coast when it was hit and it came down an estimated 10 kilometers (6 miles) away, in Syrian territorial waters, the statement said.

    The episode underscored the charged atmosphere in the region as the Syrian revolt degenerates into an armed conflict that many fear will spill beyond that country’s borders and draw in its neighbors. Compounding the tensions, Turkey has emerged as the main conduit for the weaponry that is flowing to Syrian rebels with funds from Saudi Arabia and Qatar and some facilitation by the United States.

    It is not the first time Turkey has been ensnared in the violence since the uprising against President Bashar al-Assad’s rule erupted 15 months ago, souring the once close relationship between Damascus and Ankara. After Syrian forces fired shots across the border into a Syrian refugee camp in April, Turkey threatened to invoke a mutual defense clause in the NATO charter.

    Syria seemed anxious to downplay the incident. “There was no aggression,” Foreign Ministry spokesman Jihad Makdissi said on his Twitter account. “It was an unidentified target flying at very low range when it violated Syrian airspace.” He also emphasized the role Syrian vessels were playing in helping search for the missing pilots.

    The shooting nonetheless comes at a moment of heightened international concern about the spiraling violence in Syria in the wake of the collapse of a UN peace plan brokered by special envoy Kofi Annan. The U.N. monitors who were dispatched to Syria to observe a now non-existent ceasefire have been confined to their hotels because it is too dangerous for them to go out, and the U.N. Security Council remains divided over what alternatives to pursue.

    At a press conference in Geneva, Annan warned that unless the international community agrees on a way forward soon, “it will be too late to stop the crisis from spiraling out of control.”

    The disappearance of the Turkish plane came a day after a Syrian pilot flew his MiG-21 fighter jet to Jordan and requested political asylum, in the first such defection since the uprising began. The defection was a major embarrassment for Assad’s government and is likely to have led to increased vigilance around Syria’s borders in case other pilots attempt to flee.

    Meanwhile, violence continued in Syria on Friday, with the opposition Local Coordination Committees reporting the deaths of 55 people nationwide. Among them were at least eight people shot dead while staging an anti-government protest in the Salaheddine neighborhood of the northern city of Aleppo.

    In addition, the Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported the discovery of the bodies of 25 men in one of the rural areas of Aleppo province that are slipping out of government control. They had apparently been executed in a mass killing by rebel forces, the group said.

    A video posted on YouTube showed blood-soaked bodies strewn beside a bullet-riddled pickup truck along a deserted, unpaved rural road. Some were wearing military fatigues, others jeans and T-shirts.

    The voice of the man filming the scene identifies the dead men as “Assad’s shabiha,” a reference to the informal pro-government militias that the opposition blames for much of the violence taking place. But it offers no other details.

    Syria’s state news agency SANA also reported the deaths, saying that “armed terrorists” had committed a “brutal massacre” in the Daret Azzeh area of Aleppo.

    The report said that 25 people were killed and that an unspecified number also had been kidnapped.


    Special correspondent Suzan Haidamous contributed to this report.
    Syria was rather quick apologizing about it (within hours) but it seemed like a "WAIT WAIT WAIT WE'RE SORRY PLEASE DON'T DO ANYTHING TO US". It's not as if the Asad regime is in any condition to be pissing off more people.

    Edit: It should also be noted that Turkey is busy with their own problems re the PKK and recent violence on that front.
    Last edited by ace16807; 23 Jun 12,, 02:06.

  • #2
    Bizarre. Absolutely bizarre. Given Turkey's total outrage over the Mavi Marama it'll be interesting to how they react to this.
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

    Leibniz

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    • #3
      Well since the Syrians said they determined it was Turkish after the shotdown, maybe the Syrians thought they were shooting an Israeli F-4? (half joking)

      Given Turkey's total outrage over the Mavi Marama it'll be interesting to how they react to this.
      wrong nationality, so how would they react?
      Last edited by rj1; 23 Jun 12,, 02:36.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by rj1 View Post
        Well since the Syrians said they determined it was Turkish after the shotdown, maybe the Syrians thought they were shooting an Israeli F-4? (half joking)



        wrong nationality, so how would they react?
        Regardless of the nationality of the plane, it's a dangerous game to play to arbitrarily shoot down anyone's plane. Even if Syria made the argument that it wanted to show it was "serious" about protecting its sovereignty, the regime knows very well that one wrong step could balance the scales further away from them. I half-suspect that it was a trigger happy SAM battery unit that didn't consider the repercussions of their actions. Syria was very quick about doing damage control about it. Beyond apologizing they had their naval (or CG I don't recall which) vessels out there with Turkish vessels helping with the SAR operations.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
          Bizarre. Absolutely bizarre. Given Turkey's total outrage over the Mavi Marama it'll be interesting to how they react to this.
          My understanding is that the the relationship with Syria is already trashed courtesy of the Syrian government's behaviour over the last 12 months+ - didn't take any dead Turks to get there. Add to that the long border they share & the chaotic state of Syria right now I wouldn't expect the same response. I'll be interested to see how Turkey plays it.
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          Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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          • #6
            I can't see a SAM battery taking it upon itself to shoot down a plane. It had to have the go-ahead from central command and control. It's possible Syria wanted to show the world it still commands its airspace. Or, it shows how worried the Syrians are about a surprise air attack. But one plane...one wonders. Maybe they are stupid.
            To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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            • #7
              Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
              I can't see a SAM battery taking it upon itself to shoot down a plane. It had to have the go-ahead from central command and control. It's possible Syria wanted to show the world it still commands its airspace. Or, it shows how worried the Syrians are about a surprise air attack. But one plane...one wonders. Maybe they are stupid.
              I read in other sources that there was a second F-4 that was damaged but made it back, but they are dated articles so I don't know how truthful it is. I don't know anything about RCS's but perhaps they saw an F-4 and thought it was American and shot it down for that reason? But the repercussions for shooting down a US plane would be far worse than anything Syria would have wanted. I just can't possibly imagine why they would shoot down anyone's plane considering their current situation. Normally, if I were Syria I'd intercept the flight with my own fighter wing but considering the recent defection, that obviously isn't an option.

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              • #8
                Probaby wasn't a simple training mission?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                  I can't see a SAM battery taking it upon itself to shoot down a plane. It had to have the go-ahead from central command and control. It's possible Syria wanted to show the world it still commands its airspace. Or, it shows how worried the Syrians are about a surprise air attack. But one plane...one wonders. Maybe they are stupid.
                  I know...one plane (maybe two?) gets close and they decide that a SAM is the best response. Really? WTF?

                  As usual I'm sure there's a crap-ton more to the story.
                  “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                    I know...one plane (maybe two?) gets close and they decide that a SAM is the best response. Really? WTF?

                    As usual I'm sure there's a crap-ton more to the story.
                    Yes, the next question is: What the hell was a Turkish F-4 doing over Syrian airspace flying low and slow. Smells like a run to see if Syrian air defense radars would light it up.

                    Ace says there may have been a second plane. Plot gets thicker.
                    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                      I know...one plane (maybe two?) gets close and they decide that a SAM is the best response. Really? WTF?

                      As usual I'm sure there's a crap-ton more to the story.
                      Syria antagonizing Turkey to the point where Turkey decides to retaliate leads to only one possible result comparing military strengths of the two. Dangerous game for this level of bluff therefore.

                      As far as them thinking the F-4 was American to that poster, our armed forces haven't used them in anger since the '90s at the very latest. The Syrians would certainly know that.
                      Last edited by rj1; 23 Jun 12,, 05:19.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                        Yes, the next question is: What the hell was a Turkish F-4 doing over Syrian airspace flying low and slow. Smells like a run to see if Syrian air defense radars would light it up.

                        Ace says there may have been a second plane. Plot gets thicker.
                        Can't find the source anymore but I read that there were three, they were close to a corridor they regularly use to fly from Malatya to Cyprus and may have simply passed too close to Syrian waters, in the Syrian minds at least.
                        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                        Leibniz

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                        • #13
                          “An unidentified aerial target violated Syrian airspace, coming from the west at a very low altitude and at high speed over territorial waters, so the Syrian anti-air defenses counteracted with anti-aircraft artillery,”

                          AAA according to the article. Not a SAM. ADA battery commanders (and crews) already know their ROE so requesting permission won't slow the engagement. You fly a threatening profile (especially if in tandem) then expect to be engaged.
                          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                          • #14
                            The Turks say they lost contact with it over Hatay but the Syrians say it was over the water heading west. That could only be if it was returning from Cyprus, not flying out.
                            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                            Leibniz

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                            • #15
                              The Russian media take...Syrian shoot down deliberate...

                              To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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