Originally posted by astralis
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What if: Germany went ahead with Operation Sea Lion?
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostAs I stated, there was one general who was confident that he could smashed the Germans. Montgomery brought 3rd division to Dunkirk fully intact.
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Originally posted by zraver View PostMight as well be a single person as they are the ones who established the Kingdom of Italy.
Mazzini achieved exactly nothing...
Garibaldi was a general and Emanuel was King leaving Cavour who I will concede did more than Benito.
BF, by your standards then was Chamberlain or Asquith the worst PM in British history?sigpic
Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C
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Originally posted by zraver View PostAnd how would her perform when Rommel or Guderian smashed in to him followed by several other panzer divisions? In Africa Germans on the attack most often resulted in a British defeat. The UK's best tank the Maltida II was all but used up after Arras. If the panzer's had not stopped the BEF would have gone into the bag.
As it was, the evac was organized, disciplined, and it was a fighting withdraw with 2 French divisions actively keeping the Germans at bay. The force did not collapse. There is absolutely no reason to expect anything else just because the evac would not happen.Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 18 Jun 12,, 12:29.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostYou're missing the point here. There will be a fight and the prep work was done. The panzers can't take on a trench.
As it was, the evac was organized, disciplined, and it was a fighting withdraw with 2 French divisions actively keeping the Germans at bay. The force did not collapse. There is absolutely no reason to expect anything else just because the evac would not happen.
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Originally posted by zraver View PostThose two divisions would not last long with the full might of the panzers thrown at them.
Originally posted by zraver View PostI also think the Panzers could take trenches- they did so in Poland in 39, Ardennes in 40, and the USSR in 41.
Originally posted by zraver View PostBuilt up defenses could blunt the panzers if it was properly set up such as at Tobruck. But in France the BEF doesn't have AT mines, barbed wire or a lot of AT guns. They also lack an organized plan to defend the beachhead. The BEF had spent the sitzkrieg training to advance not retreat, with the obvious exception of the 3rd which trained to retreat not assault.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostHistorically, those divisions held them back long enough for the evac to occur and then, they surrendered, not destroyed.
With proper engineering support which needed to be built up.
Nothing you wrote would lead me to believe that it would be anything like a cake walk.
Those French divisions were not pressed with the full weight of what could ahve been brought to bear when allied lines collapsed.
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A retreating army with Operation DYNAMO already being initiated. Of course they were going to destroy their own equipment. But your premise is that the BEF was already beat. There was discipline, order, and will. Given an able general (Montgomery) and the lack of room for maneuver (there was no rear for a German blitzkreig to attack, the rear being the English Channel), I can't see anything but a slugfest.
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Sir,I see your point,but IF the BEF waits too much on the continent,there won't be a BEF.French troops performed a great defensive operation and the BEF could have done equally good.But the time needed to prepare the defenses is needed for the Germans to catch up.Instead of LW trying to sink RN ships and bombing beaches,you'll have a combined operation that eventually will breach the defense in one place.Then it's over.
About tanks capturing trenches it's a bit more than that.Soviet tanks alone passed over the trenches then died between AT guns,swarming infantry and engineer defensive works.German and Soviet combined arms operations managed to break defensive lines.Those who know don't speak
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostOf course the BEF was going to die. That's not my point. My point is that it was going to be bloody, long, and hard fought.
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Originally posted by Gun Boat View PostDo you think that the British would have been interested in fighting said bloody battle? I get the impression that they just would have surrended if pushed to the point where they couldn't evac.
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If they could not evacuate they would have hunkered down and tried like hell to hold on until they could be evacuated, relieved or reinforced. It would not have been like Singapore. They were just across the Channel with the full might of the RAF and RN fighting to keeping them going.
Any decision to do otherwise would have been a political decision made at Downing Street not a military decision made in Whitehall.“Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
Mark Twain
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