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What if: Germany went ahead with Operation Sea Lion?

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  • Originally posted by astralis View Post
    col yu,



    but the scenario i'm discussing posits that dunkirk, for whatever reason, ended with the surrender of the BEF.
    Springs storms like those that delayed Operation Overlord would have spelled the end of the BEF. They would have both prevented the wading lines to the small craft from forming and muzzled Goering. The Panzer's would have driven in and it would not have been much of a slug fest. Unit cohesion was breaking down, equipment was being wrecked and the BEF felt defeated.

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    • As I stated, there was one general who was confident that he could smashed the Germans. Montgomery brought 3rd division to Dunkirk fully intact.

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      • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
        As I stated, there was one general who was confident that he could smashed the Germans. Montgomery brought 3rd division to Dunkirk fully intact.
        And how would her perform when Rommel or Guderian smashed in to him followed by several other panzer divisions? In Africa Germans on the attack most often resulted in a British defeat. The UK's best tank the Maltida II was all but used up after Arras. If the panzer's had not stopped the BEF would have gone into the bag.

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        • Originally posted by zraver View Post
          Might as well be a single person as they are the ones who established the Kingdom of Italy.

          Mazzini achieved exactly nothing...

          Garibaldi was a general and Emanuel was King leaving Cavour who I will concede did more than Benito.

          BF, by your standards then was Chamberlain or Asquith the worst PM in British history?
          Not chasing you down that rabbit hole Z. Mussolini was a disaster for Italy. Anything he achieved in his first 18 or so years was ruined by the destruction he brought upon his nation in the last 4 or so. Didn't have to go down that way.
          sigpic

          Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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          • Originally posted by zraver View Post
            And how would her perform when Rommel or Guderian smashed in to him followed by several other panzer divisions? In Africa Germans on the attack most often resulted in a British defeat. The UK's best tank the Maltida II was all but used up after Arras. If the panzer's had not stopped the BEF would have gone into the bag.
            You're missing the point here. There will be a fight and the prep work was done. The panzers can't take on a trench.

            As it was, the evac was organized, disciplined, and it was a fighting withdraw with 2 French divisions actively keeping the Germans at bay. The force did not collapse. There is absolutely no reason to expect anything else just because the evac would not happen.
            Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 18 Jun 12,, 12:29.

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            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              You're missing the point here. There will be a fight and the prep work was done. The panzers can't take on a trench.

              As it was, the evac was organized, disciplined, and it was a fighting withdraw with 2 French divisions actively keeping the Germans at bay. The force did not collapse. There is absolutely no reason to expect anything else just because the evac would not happen.
              Those two divisions would not last long with the full might of the panzers thrown at them. I also think the Panzers could take trenches- they did so in Poland in 39, Ardennes in 40, and the USSR in 41. Built up defenses could blunt the panzers if it was properly set up such as at Tobruck. But in France the BEF doesn't have AT mines, barbed wire or a lot of AT guns. They also lack an organized plan to defend the beachhead. The BEF had spent the sitzkrieg training to advance not retreat, with the obvious exception of the 3rd which trained to retreat not assault.

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              • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                Those two divisions would not last long with the full might of the panzers thrown at them.
                Historically, those divisions held them back long enough for the evac to occur and then, they surrendered, not destroyed.

                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                I also think the Panzers could take trenches- they did so in Poland in 39, Ardennes in 40, and the USSR in 41.
                With proper engineering support which needed to be built up.

                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                Built up defenses could blunt the panzers if it was properly set up such as at Tobruck. But in France the BEF doesn't have AT mines, barbed wire or a lot of AT guns. They also lack an organized plan to defend the beachhead. The BEF had spent the sitzkrieg training to advance not retreat, with the obvious exception of the 3rd which trained to retreat not assault.
                Nothing you wrote would lead me to believe that it would be anything like a cake walk.

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                • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  Historically, those divisions held them back long enough for the evac to occur and then, they surrendered, not destroyed.

                  With proper engineering support which needed to be built up.

                  Nothing you wrote would lead me to believe that it would be anything like a cake walk.
                  The BEf was faced by the 15th Panzer group (2pz 1 inf div) which was part of Army group A with a total of 7 panzer and 45 infantry divisions. With the failure of the allied armored counter attack at Arras there was nothing between the Germans and the channel but a retreating army that was already destroying its equipment. There were no prepared lines. It had 1 intact British division that would be rotated East to cover the flank of the BEF when Belgium through in the towel.

                  Those French divisions were not pressed with the full weight of what could ahve been brought to bear when allied lines collapsed.

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                  • A retreating army with Operation DYNAMO already being initiated. Of course they were going to destroy their own equipment. But your premise is that the BEF was already beat. There was discipline, order, and will. Given an able general (Montgomery) and the lack of room for maneuver (there was no rear for a German blitzkreig to attack, the rear being the English Channel), I can't see anything but a slugfest.

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                    • Sir,I see your point,but IF the BEF waits too much on the continent,there won't be a BEF.French troops performed a great defensive operation and the BEF could have done equally good.But the time needed to prepare the defenses is needed for the Germans to catch up.Instead of LW trying to sink RN ships and bombing beaches,you'll have a combined operation that eventually will breach the defense in one place.Then it's over.

                      About tanks capturing trenches it's a bit more than that.Soviet tanks alone passed over the trenches then died between AT guns,swarming infantry and engineer defensive works.German and Soviet combined arms operations managed to break defensive lines.
                      Those who know don't speak
                      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                      • Of course the BEF was going to die. That's not my point. My point is that it was going to be bloody, long, and hard fought.

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                        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          Of course the BEF was going to die. That's not my point. My point is that it was going to be bloody, long, and hard fought.
                          Do you think that the British would have been interested in fighting said bloody battle? I get the impression that they just would have surrended if pushed to the point where they couldn't evac.

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                          • Originally posted by Gun Boat View Post
                            Do you think that the British would have been interested in fighting said bloody battle? I get the impression that they just would have surrended if pushed to the point where they couldn't evac.
                            You don't surrender until your position becomes unattainable. Even if you're going to lose, your duty is to make the enemy pay for their victory.

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                            • If they could not evacuate they would have hunkered down and tried like hell to hold on until they could be evacuated, relieved or reinforced. It would not have been like Singapore. They were just across the Channel with the full might of the RAF and RN fighting to keeping them going.

                              Any decision to do otherwise would have been a political decision made at Downing Street not a military decision made in Whitehall.
                              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                              Mark Twain

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