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General MacArthur and the Fall of Bataan and Corregidor

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
    I'm jealous you could get him to open up about it. I did a lot of oral history recordings for the history department of the university I was working for and of all the groups, vets were the hardest to get to open up.
    The fact that he has gotten older seems to have helped. As a very young youngster, who was already building model warships at 6, I was naturally curious. Too young so I understand that. However, I do remember peeking into his dresser one day, like all young boys, and running across a flag with a red ball on it. Asian characters and then English words such as New Guinea, Leyte, Tacloban, etc. I had stumbled across a personal Japanese battle flag. Over the years it seems to have disappeared. Fast foward to 2005 and he shows me a picture of him in Leyte wrapped in a towel talking to his best friend (3 years older) holding a parrot. His friend was a Kansas farm boy who was a lot like Dr. Doolittle in that wild animals came right up to him. Different to my New York City father who only knew dogs, cats, pigeons and big rats. The picture was very poor shape with under and overexposure in different parts. I had someone digitally clean it up best they could and make copies. He then sent one to the son of his best friend, the one killed horribly in Ormoc, who was born while his father was away and had never seen him.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
      Need to modify a little of what I said above as I just had lunch with my father and we talked a little more. Bringing up MacArthur again I get clarification that his only issues with him concerned the hills above Ormoc and the Villa Verde Trail. Ormoc because he called Leyte secure just before they went into the hills and lost 1500 KIA and lost his best friend in a "horrible" (his words) death. Villa Verde because it was an impossible situation that wasted a lot of men. However, when I asked him how he would rate MacArthur he said he would give him an A+.
      Great example of how time distorts memories.

      32nd Inf Div losses 27 Jan 45 to 30 June 45 (most from 1 Feb to 31 may)

      KIA/DoW/MIA 52 officers 868 enlisted*
      WIA/IIA 117 officers, 2396 enlisted
      non-battle 153 officers, 4808 enlisted**

      * 1 officer died for every 17 enlisted men killed, while 1 officer was wounded for every 20 enlisted who were hit... evidence of Japanese snipers?

      **Disease and fatigue were the biggest dangers, the 32nd suffered an abnormally high number of battle fatigue cases due to the exposed position, terrain, enemy action and lack of supplies. At one point the 127th regiment only had half the number of local porters needed to manually carry supplies to the troops. The 127th regiment was fought out twice and the 128th was fought out at least once.

      So while the 32nd didn't suffer 1500kia, it did suffer greater than 100% casualties when including disease.

      32nd Infantry firsts.

      First unit to ship from the US as an entire division and first single convoy movement of a division, first US unit to launch a ground (not amphibious) assault on the Japanese, the division also saw parts of it become the first unit to be air lifted into combat, and some of its artillery were the first US artillery units air lifted into combat.

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      • #33
        col yu,

        Rommel was able to do that, even in retreat.
        i do recall that your assessment of rommel wasn't all that high, either. in fact, i think it was in a related thread re: Mac.

        wasn't the overall conclusion that Mac was a good student of the Greats but not a Great himself.
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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        • #34
          Did Mac's troops really adore him? A couple of historians I have read were extremely scathing of the reputation of Mac as a general sparing with his men's lives. Millet and Murray argued that the long flanking manoeuvers for which Mac was famous also made logistics more difficult resulting in high rate of disease, malnutrition and shell shock. They estimate that taken in full there was no evidence that Mac's troops suffered less casualties than their marine counterpart.

          Additionally, the marine campaign against atolls often did not allow the manoeuver room for anything except frontal assaults, and those islands had to be taken for their strategic value as airfields. Didn't the Navy-Marine plan entirely omits New Guinea and the Philippines as unnecessary to the waging of the air campaign against Japan? Keegan suggests that the SW front had to be created to accommodate the Army apart from practical considerations. Further, I do not buy much stock in the political necessity to retake the Philippines. No one in the Philippines could make the US attack it, and the outcome of the war would not have changed without it.
          All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
          -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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          • #35
            IMO, Among other things Mac was a nationalist of the Phillipines. It was he who persuaded Roosevelt that the Phillipines should be liberated first instead of hopping over them to Formosa. Mac was also one to want to join the fight. He was ordered to remain far away upon the cruiser Nashville at anchor during the Battle of Leyte Gulf by the one person who held seniority over him without doubt. Roosevelt.;)
            Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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            • #36
              From what I have seen MacArthur was very much a man of honor. Being such, and have pledged to the Filipinos that he would return, there is almost no way he would give that goal up and so he was forceful in his position to retake the Islands.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                From what I have seen MacArthur was very much a man of honor. Being such, and have pledged to the Filipinos that he would return, there is almost no way he would give that goal up and so he was forceful in his position to retake the Islands.
                He was a complex guy, Tbm3fan.

                It's hard to figure out his exact motivation for pushing so hard for the Philippines during the war, especially since it was discovered he was given a $500,000 bonus by the Philippine president before he was evacuated in 1942.

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                • #38
                  Many reasons are written outside of his own however the fact that there were Americans in concentration camps there made light of politics.
                  Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                    Many reasons are written outside of his own however the fact that there were Americans in concentration camps there made light of politics.
                    I think the Navy thought the Army's push from the SW Pacific an unnecessary diversion from their own drive, Dreadnought.

                    Big Mac's treatment of Wainwright, who was in captivity, is interesting.

                    He opposed Marshall awarding him the Medal of Honor, despite getting one himself for political reasons.

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                    • #40
                      Mac was well invested in the Phillipines, it should never take away from the man he was by leaving. If you have read the stories of the men that were there it would be much inspiring of the events that transpiried. I would recommend Mac's pilots comments . "Dusty Rhodes". The Phillipines were Macs people. All walks of life and he wanted them all liberated before Formosa was taken. There was no compromise, and all including Halsey were part via FDR. Some of the their stories must be read not taken for grantit.

                      IMO, Mac did was was right, not popular with Brass.

                      "Americanos" "Come";)
                      Last edited by Dreadnought; 19 May 12,, 03:12.
                      Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                      • #41
                        Have been reading With the Old Breed. How much influence did MacArthur had with the decision to attack Peleliu?
                        All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                        -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                        • #42
                          That would have required Nimitz and FDR since Mac had a very small fleet as compared to the ones under Nimitz's command. Before Peleliu was taken they had to take other islands first to protect the invading US forces.
                          Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                          • #43
                            Gen. Macarthur, it seems, was traumatized that he had to leave the Philippines, and that the soldiers in Bataan were left behind, without any meaningful leadership. What happened in Korea, where he had differences with, I believe, the U. N. Command, seems to indicate this. I refer to the Korean War, after WW2. Perhaps, Macarthur also had differences with Eisenhower, at the same time he did with the U. N. Command.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by AdityaMookerjee View Post
                              Gen. Macarthur, it seems, was traumatized that he had to leave the Philippines, and that the soldiers in Bataan were left behind, without any meaningful leadership. What happened in Korea, where he had differences with, I believe, the U. N. Command, seems to indicate this. I refer to the Korean War, after WW2. Perhaps, Macarthur also had differences with Eisenhower, at the same time he did with the U. N. Command.
                              You might be on to something here. MacArthur did escape the Philippines onboard a PT boat, not very becoming of a high ranking officer. And he did abandon his men.

                              I'm not sure if he had any differences with Ike during the Korean War. He wanted to fight commies and didn't like Truman too much. I believe he was sacked by Truman, which was before Ike movied into the White House in 1953.
                              "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                              • #45
                                Eisenhower and Bradley both recommended MacArthur's removal.

                                It was clear he overstepped the boundaries of the civil-military relationship.
                                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                                Mark Twain

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