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  • #61
    It was not a T&E bird...my point was that losses are not limited to the early airframes.

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    • #62
      I would dearly love to have the clearances necessary to sit in on training mission briefs and debriefs.

      Word from the few active duty guys in my circle is that the F-22 seat is not the premier, desired job out of pilot training... it is the legacies, the F-15/16 and A-10 that guys want to fly, and that implies the missions are very different. The legacy fighters are fun to fly, fun to employ. The F-22 seems more like a digital stealth piloted drone. Fly at the bad guys, yawn a bit because there's little challenge, pickle multiple AIM-120's, and turn around for the RTB.

      My point is, I wonder if the F-22 units are training as if they were uber-F-15's, or if they are training correctly, using the platform's stealth and stand-off capabilities to the max. If they are doing perch BFM setups and pulling 9 G's at 30,000', then that may be contributing to the odd physiological symptoms, and the closer the F-22 training is to the legacies, the more airframe losses that can be expected.

      I understand the actual F-22 losses aren't connected to maneuvering... just a general opinionated observation.

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      • #63
        Why I get the feeling there's also an emphasis on "Ffs don't risk these birds!!!!" on those briefs?...

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Chogy View Post
          I would dearly love to have the clearances necessary to sit in on training mission briefs and debriefs.

          Word from the few active duty guys in my circle is that the F-22 seat is not the premier, desired job out of pilot training... it is the legacies, the F-15/16 and A-10 that guys want to fly, and that implies the missions are very different. The legacy fighters are fun to fly, fun to employ. The F-22 seems more like a digital stealth piloted drone. Fly at the bad guys, yawn a bit because there's little challenge, pickle multiple AIM-120's, and turn around for the RTB.

          My point is, I wonder if the F-22 units are training as if they were uber-F-15's, or if they are training correctly, using the platform's stealth and stand-off capabilities to the max. If they are doing perch BFM setups and pulling 9 G's at 30,000', then that may be contributing to the odd physiological symptoms, and the closer the F-22 training is to the legacies, the more airframe losses that can be expected.

          I understand the actual F-22 losses aren't connected to maneuvering... just a general opinionated observation.
          The Raptor community has developed it's own unique warfighting style, different from the legacy fighters. And they train to it. With the exception of basic scripted instruction sorties, I've never seen them do "normal" stuff, it's all geared toward what they bring to the fight.

          Your take on the "fun" factor checks with what I picked up.

          Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
          Why I get the feeling there's also an emphasis on "Ffs don't risk these birds!!!!" on those briefs?...
          That's the case in every briefing. It was not unusual for our step briefs to have more safety slides than mission slides. This way leadership can claim they're doing everything they can to prevent mishaps.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Jimmy View Post
            It was not a T&E bird...my point was that losses are not limited to the early airframes.
            Ok, thats what i thought you were saying.

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            • #66
              The Raptor community has developed it's own unique warfighting style, different from the legacy fighters. And they train to it.
              Good deal. I never should have doubted that. It's how professionals behave.

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              • #67
                We are talking about fighter pilots though

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                • #68
                  F-22s were cleared to fly at Tyndall today.

                  Tyndall also received its first QF-16 today

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                    F-22s were cleared to fly at Tyndall today.

                    Tyndall also received its first QF-16 today
                    Are the QF's old F-16A's, or C's?
                    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Stitch View Post
                      Are the QF's old F-16A's, or C's?
                      Cs block 25s

                      The original prototype was a A Block 15 but the QFs are C Block 25s. Suppose to be plenty of them in the desert, just waiting for someone to blow up
                      Last edited by Gun Grape; 21 Nov 12,, 02:24.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                        Cs block 25s

                        The original prototype was a A Block 15 but the QFs are C Block 25s. Suppose to be plenty of them in the desert, just waiting for someone to blow up
                        Yeah, nobody's buying 25's anymore; they're all Block 50/52's or 60's now.
                        Last edited by Stitch; 21 Nov 12,, 06:33.
                        "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                        • #72
                          How great is this country? We blow up perfectly good fighter jets because it's cheaper than selling them...
                          "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                          • #73
                            It has never ceased to make me sad to see those drones being blown up.

                            I've mentioned it before - the law that makes the sale of retired warplanes to civilians illegal should be repealed. It is stupid and antiquated. Open the boneyard to collectors.

                            Obviously, you de-mil them. Remove the radar, RWR, gun, any sensitive electronics, but otherwise, have at it. In the future, the F-14/15/16, A-7, T-37, T-38, F-5, all of them, will be national treasures, just as WW2 warbirds are today. And there are plenty of people who would be willing to pay millions for an old F-16 with spares.

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                            • #74
                              But where else can you get the opportunity, short of combat, to fly against a 4th generation aircraft? And shoot it down.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                                But where else can you get the opportunity, short of combat, to fly against a 4th generation aircraft? And shoot it down.
                                Oh, I understand the absolute need for the Tyndall range and other hot ranges like it. Most missiles pulled from stock are fitted with telemetry rather than a warhead, and the scientists gain valuable data with each shot. But it still makes me sad.

                                I fired an AIM-9L at a BQM-34 drone, and the data added to the growing database of missile performance. It was a "hit" FWIW, passing within fuze range of the drone, and the fuze signal was correctly generated.

                                The bottom of the Gulf of Mexico South of Tyndall AFB must be carpeted with hardware. I'm surprised there haven't been foreign "fishing boats" scooping up goodies from the bottom of the sea in that area.

                                I am unsure of the costs of a new Firebee drone, vs. retrofitting an old F-16A from the boneyard. Obviously, there are different missions, too. A Firebee cannot do mach 1.6 at 55,000', nor can it do a 9 G jink to try and defeat AAMs.

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