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Thread: DDG-1000 News

  1. #331
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    At this point, the USN might as well replaced it with a barge loaded with cruise missiles...
    Two possibilities with very different cost structures...
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  2. #332
    Military Professional JCT's Avatar
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    I'm not going to defend the Zumwalt's, I think that they've been a huge money sinkhole. However, there's a reason all those antennas and structures had to be added and you can't really stealth the antennas themselves. You need a big hunk of metal to receive and transmit data. These data links let everyone know the tactical picture - you have to know where to shoot all those missiles. Physics dictates that these antennas be in a certain shape for the most efficient reception/transmission. That also makes them dandy radar reflectors. They did try to mitigate this somewhat. If you look closely, the base of the comms are all nicely angled in a way to reflect radar waves away from the transmitter. The domes themselves are non-metallic (ie radar transparent), however the guts of each system are probably not optimized, but I truly do not know.

    Perhaps the Navy could have spent another billion dollars in coming up with some gee whiz stealth design for each antenna plus a system that pulls each system inside the hull when not in use (I think they have some systems that actually do this.) However, all this would only be used on 3 ships - not an efficient use of limited funds. I think all those new Arleigh Burkes will make a much bigger impact on the Fleet and the money saved can go into maintenance and training.

    Yeah, everything looks bolted on and it rather takes away from the aesthetic, which has been growing on me, but they didn't design them to look cool.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Two possibilities with very different cost structures...
    Ah, yes, the Arsenal Ship. Didn't that "evolve" into the 1000? Some evolution...

  4. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCT View Post
    I'm not going to defend the Zumwalt's, I think that they've been a huge money sinkhole. However, there's a reason all those antennas and structures had to be added and you can't really stealth the antennas themselves.
    Yeah, about that... I never understood this part of the ship's "sale pitch". Were these antenna supposed to obey some new law of physics?...

  5. #335
    Military Professional JCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    Yeah, about that... I never understood this part of the ship's "sale pitch". Were these antenna supposed to obey some new law of physics?...
    No, but I think the idea was to reduce the signature of the superstructure itself. If you look at the superstructure of the Arleigh Burkes, I'm assuming that they did a good job in reducing its signature in relation to its size. Then look at all the equipment mounted on top - there's a ton of stuff that has been installed without thought to its radar signature. The Zumwalt has eliminated the top hamper junk and somehow hidden them all in the hull. (Maintenance access must be a nightmare.) Some things you just can't hide. Perhaps when the ships were initially designed and contracted for, the comms equipment they just added were either not included or had not been fielded yet, so had to be added post-commissioning, but maybe there wasn't room in the superstructure or the funding to properly hide it.

  6. #336
    Senior Contributor JA Boomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCT View Post
    I'm not going to defend the Zumwalt's, I think that they've been a huge money sinkhole. However, there's a reason all those antennas and structures had to be added and you can't really stealth the antennas themselves.
    What about with an advanced enclosed sensor/mast system such as on the LPD-17 class?

  7. #337
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    Unless the objective of 'stealth' is to prevent your foes from locking onto your platform with a tracking radar, I never understood the reasoning behind trying to limit the radar signature of a ship, then broadcasting your position which can be detected by EW equipment from hundreds of miles away. If stealth is accompanied by the complete elimination of radiating equipment, then I guess you can hide like a submarine. Otherwise, it's like wearing black in a dark forest, and using a searchlight to look around. I think it makes a lot of sense for airplanes. Ships, not so much.

  8. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebard View Post
    Unless the objective of 'stealth' is to prevent your foes from locking onto your platform with a tracking radar, I never understood the reasoning behind trying to limit the radar signature of a ship, then broadcasting your position which can be detected by EW equipment from hundreds of miles away. If stealth is accompanied by the complete elimination of radiating equipment, then I guess you can hide like a submarine. Otherwise, it's like wearing black in a dark forest, and using a searchlight to look around. I think it makes a lot of sense for airplanes. Ships, not so much.
    "Signal stealth" has been a 2-edged sword since WWII. Even before, if you count radio and active sonar. Don't use radio/radar/sonar and you can sneak up as much as possible on the enemy; but you risk blundering into one, or being picked up 1st. Use radio/radar/sonar and everyone all over will know where you are just as fast and you know the enemy, or even first. Decisions, decisions...

    So the idea, afaik, is to try to get as close as possible undected before you feel you have you start emiting. Hence the atempt at stealth...

  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    ...try to get as close as possible undected before you feel you have you start emiting...
    Yep, assuming you know where they are, since you can't use your radar. Doesn't that give them the same stealth advantage?

  10. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebard View Post
    Unless the objective of 'stealth' is to prevent your foes from locking onto your platform with a tracking radar, I never understood the reasoning behind trying to limit the radar signature of a ship, then broadcasting your position which can be detected by EW equipment from hundreds of miles away. If stealth is accompanied by the complete elimination of radiating equipment, then I guess you can hide like a submarine. Otherwise, it's like wearing black in a dark forest, and using a searchlight to look around. I think it makes a lot of sense for airplanes. Ships, not so much.
    Stealth aircraft use Low-Probability of Intercept radar with narrow, laser like beams from AESA radars that don't broadcast their position beyond the specific volume they are searching. I don't see any reason ships couldn't do the same. This can also be used for highly directional communications between ships that are almost impossible to intercept.

    If you haven't read an account of NORPAC 82 it describes in broad strokes how the USN managed to hide an entire task force from the Soviets despite running simulated strikes against strategic sites and highly intensive searches by the Soviets.
    http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-031.php

    Stealth allows you to play even more games with your enemy to deceive them, which seems imminently worthwhile, particularly since the US has so much experience with stealth materials and shaping compared to the rest of the world.

  11. #341
    Military Professional JCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JA Boomer View Post
    What about with an advanced enclosed sensor/mast system such as on the LPD-17 class?
    You definitely could do this, but it'd be more expensive. If you look at the LPDs, they still have all of these domes sticking up all over the place. If you go back to the The Drive article which kicked off this part of the discussion, they show a graphic from 2016 that pretty much looks like the Zumwalt today in it's "final, revised, and cheaper configuration".

  12. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebard View Post
    Yep, assuming you know where they are, since you can't use your radar. Doesn't that give them the same stealth advantage?
    Yeah, that's what makes it interesting! :D

    Imagine two men in a dark field, in a dark night, both with flashlights. Both will avoid using the flashlight as long as possible, to avoid getting spoted... so they quietly circle around, trying to see on hear or see something. If one has dark clothes, that one has a chance of getting a couple of meters closer to the other...

  13. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    Yeah, that's what makes it interesting! :D

    Imagine two men in a dark field, in a dark night, both with flashlights. Both will avoid using the flashlight as long as possible, to avoid getting spoted... so they quietly circle around, trying to see on hear or see something. If one has dark clothes, that one has a chance of getting a couple of meters closer to the other...
    add a third person from a distance with a flash light with the ability to silently to talk to his friend who is moving closer to the other guy.....

  14. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCT View Post
    You definitely could do this, but it'd be more expensive. If you look at the LPDs, they still have all of these domes sticking up all over the place. If you go back to the The Drive article which kicked off this part of the discussion, they show a graphic from 2016 that pretty much looks like the Zumwalt today in it's "final, revised, and cheaper configuration".
    that was the original design intent.

    those masts and sensors were to be 'stealth'd'.

    adding in those external mounts defeats the whole purpose, but saves the cash.

  15. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfng3569 View Post
    add a third person from a distance with a flash light with the ability to silently to talk to his friend who is moving closer to the other guy.....
    That 3rd person risks dying dying fast, unless it's at a considerable distance... in which case you need a much bigger flashlight. But then this will probably make "bad guy" run away.

    This war is a heck of a dance...

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