And As Soon As We Do Something Good on the PR Front...

[bigross86]

The territorial brigade is a reserve unit is it not? Most reserve formations have a dual police mission for dealing with domestic disturbances.

No, it's not, thanks for playing. Territorial brigades are merely the foundation and support units for other combat units that rotate through the region. Every territorial brigade has command over the forces in it's region, but is also there to give support to those units. They do NOT have a dual police mission for domestic disturbances. I don't know where you got that, but it's wrong. Domestic disturbance, like all civil crime, is the jurisdiction of the police, not the IDF.

So a Jordan valley territorial brigade in the Jordan Valley, an are known for protests but that does not have a hostile border has a mission other than dealing with protestors and stopping terrorists?

The Jordan Valley is not known for protests, the protests are found much more often in the Etzion region outside Jerusalem. The main mission in the Jordan Valley, surprisingly enough, is terrorism from Jericho, and yes, the border with Jordan, which is mainly Palestinian. When I was there not a week would go by without the entire region converging on some part of the fence and catching a smuggler, drug dealer, refugee or something of the sort.

Hogwash, every bullet fired at flesh is a lethal attack, don't even pretend otherwise.

No, every bullet fired has the potential to be lethal, it is not lethal.

But not non-lethal means like CS gas or better and pre-emptive crows control measures like water and noise...

Non-lethal can also include a butt stock to the face. Yes, water would have been better, and the Lt. Col. himself admitted that he erred by not bringing a water cannon sooner.

[Doktor]

Quite a whack to the face...

Israeli soldiers brutally attack Palestinians and ISM activists on bike ride - YouTube

Have I missed or the video lacks this scene:



On a side note, that bike fits the description of Whiskey's missing bike.

[Mihais]

In short,the riot of the idiots.On one side,idiots coming from afar,not minding their own bussiness.On the other,a force untrained,with no equipment and with faulty leadership.And there's more than just the Lt.Col that lost his temper.There's the whole IDF establishment,from the very top down.

german police in action compilation - YouTube
crs Paris nation manifestation palestine 10/01/2009 - YouTube
Interventia jandarmilor impotriva protestatarilor - YouTube

The difference between those in the movies and the Israelis in question is that the Israelis lost their head and made a cascade of stupid things.The 3 european forces in the movies did much worse,to much more violent protesters,but as long as it was within the law,nobody gave a damn and nobody should

[Doktor]

... and then you have your Conan ;)

[Mihais]

Still,he did that within the limits of law,with the proper equipment and still he knew what was going on within the very limited sector he was in charge at the time(as I found out later).While he was dumb and sorta funny,we still have a few guys that knew the stuff and did a proper job,after the initial less than fortunate debut of violent riots.

Simply put,the infantry had nothing to do there and the worst police is better than the best infantry at this job.

[zraver]

No, it's not, thanks for playing. Territorial brigades are merely the foundation and support units for other combat units that rotate through the region. Every territorial brigade has command over the forces in it's region, but is also there to give support to those units. They do NOT have a dual police mission for domestic disturbances. I don't know where you got that, but it's wrong. Domestic disturbance, like all civil crime, is the jurisdiction of the police, not the IDF.

Then why were they there?

As for where I got that idea, most reserve military formations across the globe have dual military/police functions ie the US National Guard during the LA riots as an example.

The Jordan Valley is not known for protests, the protests are found much more often in the Etzion region outside Jerusalem. The main mission in the Jordan Valley, surprisingly enough, is terrorism from Jericho, and yes, the border with Jordan, which is mainly Palestinian. When I was there not a week would go by without the entire region converging on some part of the fence and catching a smuggler, drug dealer, refugee or something of the sort.

When was the last terrorist attack from Jericho? How many protests are there per week? The officer in question admits the protests are common and he had the kit to deal with them, twist in the wind all you want but the facts are the facts.

No, every bullet fired has the potential to be lethal, it is not lethal.

No every bullet fired at flesh is a lethal attack period- never point a gun at something you don't intend to kill- ever heard that one before?

Non-lethal can also include a butt stock to the face. Yes, water would have been better, and the Lt. Col. himself admitted that he erred by not bringing a water cannon sooner.

NO, like you said earlier, a butt stock to the face is less lethal, but still a lethal attack, its no different than a club and a Palestinian beating an IDF trooper in the face with a bat would be shot- judge by the same measure.

[bigross86]

Then why were they there?

To provide logistical support for the units rotating through, as well as have a skeleton of permanent forces in the region that know everything there is to know about it.

As for where I got that idea, most reserve military formations across the globe have dual military/police functions ie the US National Guard during the LA riots as an example.

Most is not all, I'm sure you must have learned that in high school at some point.

When was the last terrorist attack from Jericho? How many protests are there per week? The officer in question admits the protests are common and he had the kit to deal with them, twist in the wind all you want but the facts are the facts.

I got out of the army in July 2008. Up to and including July 2008 there was still intelligence reports on threats coming from Jericho. There is a world of difference between "known for protests" (your words) and "protests are common" (your revised statement). Most protests that you hear of are in the regions surrounding Jerusalem, mainly the Kalandia Checkpoint.

No every bullet fired at flesh is a lethal attack period- never point a gun at something you don't intend to kill- ever heard that one before?

Nope. The way we train is that wherever a soldier looks, his rifle should be pointed in the same location, to cut down on reaction time. Besides, aiming a rifle at someone is a very credible threat and one that we use frequently when trying to keep people under control. You'd be surprised how often seeing a loaded gun pointed your way will shut you the fuck up.

NO, like you said earlier, a butt stock to the face is less lethal, but still a lethal attack, its no different than a club and a Palestinian beating an IDF trooper in the face with a bat would be shot- judge by the same measure.

That's right, it's so lethal that the idiot protester guy walked away with stitches and that's it. Now imagine someone swinging say, a baseball bat, directly at your head. I dare you to tell us that you'd walk away from one of those with just a few stitches. Same type of weapon can be used lethally or non-lethally. Fact of the matter is, no one is going to swing a bat the same way you'd swing a gun to give someone the butt stock in the face. Clubbing someone with a gun you are intentionally limiting your swing and the power you can put behind it so as to cause a lesser, non-lethal injury.

[USSWisconsin]

That "protester" should have spent 90 days in an Israeli jail if you ask me (inciting a riot, reckless endangerment, and obstruction of justice come to mind). I can't imagine myself going to another country to incite a riot and cause trouble with the local government - but if I did do something like that - I wouldn't imagine that there wouldn't be serious consequences.

[zraver]

To provide logistical support for the units rotating through, as well as have a skeleton of permanent forces in the region that know everything there is to know about it.

wrong answer sparky- the colonel himself said he was there to keep the road open- implying a law enforcement function.

Most is not all, I'm sure you must have learned that in high school at some point.

Minor point and freely conceded, too bad the IDF colonel admits he had a police function.

I got out of the army in July 2008. Up to and including July 2008 there was still intelligence reports on threats coming from Jericho. There is a world of difference between "known for protests" (your words) and "protests are common" (your revised statement). Most protests that you hear of are in the regions surrounding Jerusalem, mainly the Kalandia Checkpoint.

There is an even wider gulf between paranoid delusions and actual events.When was the last terrorist attack on Israel out of the Jericho area? How many protests are there in the Jericho area per day, week, month, year. I am willing to bet the number of daily or at worst weekly protests exceeds the number of real terrorist threats over the course of 2011.

Nope. The way we train is that wherever a soldier looks, his rifle should be pointed in the same location,

So you train your troops to look at the feet of the enemy? You know the who aim to hit them below the knees thing...

to cut down on reaction time.

uh-huh sure- stare at the least telegraphic part of the body (lower legs) to cut down on reaction time and miss seeing any real threats in the hands...

Besides, aiming a rifle at someone is a very credible threat and one that we use frequently when trying to keep people under control. You'd be surprised how often seeing a loaded gun pointed your way will shut you the fuck up.

No I wouldn't sparky, I've used a gun, and was quite prepared to kill if I had to. I found it to be a far less effective tool at controlling someone than my asp baton or pepper spray. Believe it or not, most people your trying to control with force are more scared of going toe to toe against someone with a baton than facing a gun. A gun is a lethal weapon and escalates any situation. I've also drawn down on someone with lethal intent to stop a perceived attack.

I've also been shot at, pissed me off- both times, both drive-byes. First: stupid banger and his crack whore girl are lucky I had my wife and kid with me or I'd have chased him down and taken his Saturday night special from him and shoved it up his ass. I was wearing either one of my .40's or my .357 and had a 30-30 in the trunk and had my vest on. Second time was a bunch of high school kids with a paintball gun, got me in the back and back of the leg as they passed me. I was about ready to fire when I noticed the paint splatters on the wall next to me.

That's right, it's so lethal that the idiot protester guy walked away with stitches and that's it. Now imagine someone swinging say, a baseball bat, directly at your head. I dare you to tell us that you'd walk away from one of those with just a few stitches.

Tell ya what, come to Arkansas and we'll do an experiment. I'll butt stock you and if you get up you get to hit me in the head with a bat. I will need you to sign a waiver and take full responsibility for your medical bills or funeral. Just becuase the colonel pulled his punch so to speak doesn't detract from the fact the attack was a lethal act. Take a 12" blade and only stab someone with 2' of it, wonder what your charge is going to be.

Same type of weapon can be used lethally or non-lethally. Fact of the matter is, no one is going to swing a bat the same way you'd swing a gun to give someone the butt stock in the face. Clubbing someone with a gun you are intentionally limiting your swing and the power you can put behind it so as to cause a lesser, non-lethal injury.

Then why have police used batons for riot control for so long. Or do you think there is a magical difference between a bat and a rattan or oak club of the same length? The human skull will bust with the same application of force in psi be it from a slow moving heavy object or a fast moving light object.

[astralis]

alright guys, calm down a little bit please.

[Aryajet]

The difference between those in the movies and the Israelis in question is that the Israelis lost their head and made a cascade of stupid things.The 3 european forces in the movies did much worse,to much more violent protesters,but as long as it was within the law,nobody gave a damn and nobody should

The difference is that Israelis were not participant on either side in those videos. It is utterly difficult to convince the majority part of the wold that you are doing your best (considering the workload you face in daily basis) to remain within the framework of law while your critics are watching every move you make, every action you take with 10X magnifying glass 24/7 and international medias are hungry for filling up their front pages.

[1980s]

Quite a whack to the face...

Israeli soldiers brutally attack Palestinians and ISM activists on bike ride - YouTube

To be fair, the Danish dude was pretty stupid. I mean, if you watch closely the Danish guy looks like he started it by trying to eyeball/stare-down the Lt Col. Im not defending the actions of the Lt Col though, what he did was abhorrent.

[bigross86]

wrong answer sparky- the colonel himself said he was there to keep the road open- implying a law enforcement function.

Having a mission that falls within the jurisdiction of both the police and national security does not imply that the IDF trains for police missions. Protests are the purview of the police. The IDF has training, but focuses on their true and real missions, whether it be infantry, armor, artillery, etc...

Minor point and freely conceded, too bad the IDF colonel admits he had a police function.

See above

There is an even wider gulf between paranoid delusions and actual events.When was the last terrorist attack on Israel out of the Jericho area? How many protests are there in the Jericho area per day, week, month, year. I am willing to bet the number of daily or at worst weekly protests exceeds the number of real terrorist threats over the course of 2011.

Better to adhere to the whispered warning of lethal attacks coming from Jericho and see nothing happen thanks to being on guard as well as arresting suspects near Jericho and having the Palestinian police arrest suspects within Jericho than to ignore it, no?

So you train your troops to look at the feet of the enemy? You know the who aim to hit them below the knees thing...

No, we train our soldiers to look around, and wherever they look, the gun follows. How you could infer this:

So you train your troops to look at the feet of the enemy?

from this:

Nope. The way we train is that wherever a soldier looks, his rifle should be pointed in the same location,

is beyond me.

uh-huh sure- stare at the least telegraphic part of the body (lower legs) to cut down on reaction time and miss seeing any real threats in the hands...

See above

No I wouldn't sparky, I've used a gun, and was quite prepared to kill if I had to. I found it to be a far less effective tool at controlling someone than my asp baton or pepper spray. Believe it or not, most people your trying to control with force are more scared of going toe to toe against someone with a baton than facing a gun. A gun is a lethal weapon and escalates any situation. I've also drawn down on someone with lethal intent to stop a perceived attack.

I don't know when's the last time you stared down a mob of angry protesters with slingshots, but an aimed gun will calm them down pretty quickly once you're close enough.

I've also been shot at, pissed me off- both times, both drive-byes. First: stupid banger and his crack whore girl are lucky I had my wife and kid with me or I'd have chased him down and taken his Saturday night special from him and shoved it up his ass. I was wearing either one of my .40's or my .357 and had a 30-30 in the trunk and had my vest on. Second time was a bunch of high school kids with a paintball gun, got me in the back and back of the leg as they passed me. I was about ready to fire when I noticed the paint splatters on the wall next to me.

And I've had AT-13 and AT-14's fired at me. I've had MG fire aimed at my head and been peppered with ricochets from AK fire while trying to arrest someone. Sometimes we shot back, sometimes we didn't. I don't understand what the purpose of this part of the post is. Are you trying to one up me?

Tell ya what, come to Arkansas and we'll do an experiment. I'll butt stock you and if you get up you get to hit me in the head with a bat. I will need you to sign a waiver and take full responsibility for your medical bills or funeral. Just becuase the colonel pulled his punch so to speak doesn't detract from the fact the attack was a lethal act. Take a 12" blade and only stab someone with 2' of it, wonder what your charge is going to be.

Tell ya what, you swing the same way the Lt. Col. did with the same force and we got a deal if you're willing to sign the same waiver.

Then why have police used batons for riot control for so long. Or do you think there is a magical difference between a bat and a rattan or oak club of the same length? The human skull will bust with the same application of force in psi be it from a slow moving heavy object or a fast moving light object.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that telescoping asps or batons are much smaller, lighter and easier to carry than assault rifles? Call me crazy, I wouldn't arm police with nothing but assault rifles unless that was their main mission, like SWAT, and I wouldn't arm soldiers with nothing but batons unless they were specifically going on a riot control mission, and even then I'd have them pack batons along with the assault rifles, because a soldier first mission is to be a soldier, not a cop.

By the way, the least you could do is show me some respect as a long standing member of this board if not as a Staff Sergeant (Res.) in the IDF. Therefore I'm going to have to insist that you either call me Mr. Sparky or Sergeant Sparky. I'll leave it up to you. Sarge will also do in a pinch

[Mihais]

At least you agree,your doctrine sucks.Cops do have batons,tasers,pistols,shotguns and/or automatic rifles/SMG's.Those grunts there had nothing but guns.

Look,pointing a gun at someone unarmed is going to work,assuming you're ready to shoot and he knows it.This can be considered law enforcement,but it is a very primitive form and should only be used as a last resort.Your practice this on a constant basis.

Everyone is different and Z is making a big leap when he says reserve units have law enforcement tasks,extrapolating from US practice.A ton of countries have a gendarmerie force.Russia has the Interior Ministery Troops.China has the PAP and so on.So,Ben,how comes you didn't figured to create something similar?

[bigross86]

No idea, when I get involved in Israeli government security policy, I'll let you know.

It could be anything from budget, efficiency, or manpower.