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  • #31
    Versus,

    Those calculations didn't work well in Kosovo, did they?

    Looking at the data, Kosovo always had the highest unemployment rate in Yugoslavia. From 25+% in 1985, to 49% before the conflict in 1999.

    On top of that it was the Serbs who were (mostly) employed and Albanians (mostly) unemployed.

    The same goes for western Macedonia and it is all a result of wrong policies.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Doktor View Post
      Versus,

      Those calculations didn't work well in Kosovo, did they?

      Looking at the data, Kosovo always had the highest unemployment rate in Yugoslavia. From 25+% in 1985, to 49% before the conflict in 1999.

      On top of that it was the Serbs who were (mostly) employed and Albanians (mostly) unemployed.

      The same goes for western Macedonia and it is all a result of wrong policies.
      You are joking,right?

      Comment


      • #33
        They're training Syrian rebels in Kosovo I hear.

        Comment


        • #34
          A friendly reminder,Doktor.
          "During the meeting in Prizren a kararname was signed by 47 beys in June 18, 1878. The document represents an initial position, mainly supported by landlords and individuals related to the Ottoman administration. In Article 1 of this document, these Albanian leaders restated their intention to preserve and maintain the territorial integrity of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans by supporting the Turkish Sultan, Islamic Shariah law, and "to struggle in arms to defend the wholeness of the territories". Article 6 of the same document restates the hostility of Albanians, as Ottoman loyalists, to the independence of both Bulgaria and Serbia. "We should not allow foreign armies to tread on our land. We should not recognize Bulgaria's name. If Serbia does not leave peacefully the illegally occupied countries, we should send bashibazouks (akindjias) and strive until the end to liberate these regions, including Montenegro."-League of Prizren,June 18, 1878
          There are no labor rights,no human rights,etc in their proclamation and formulation of their goals and they remained true to their cause till this day.
          Last edited by Versus; 04 May 12,, 21:38.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Versus View Post
            You are joking,right?
            On the point that economic stability and employment contain extremism? No.


            Originally posted by Versus View Post
            A friendly reminder,Doktor.
            "During the meeting in Prizren a kararname was signed by 47 beys in June 18, 1878. The document represents an initial position, mainly supported by landlords and individuals related to the Ottoman administration. In Article 1 of this document, these Albanian leaders restated their intention to preserve and maintain the territorial integrity of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans by supporting the Turkish Sultan, Islamic Shariah law, and "to struggle in arms to defend the wholeness of the territories". Article 6 of the same document restates the hostility of Albanians, as Ottoman loyalists, to the independence of both Bulgaria and Serbia. "We should not allow foreign armies to tread on our land. We should not recognize Bulgaria's name. If Serbia does not leave peacefully the illegally occupied countries, we should send bashibazouks (akindjias) and strive until the end to liberate these regions, including Montenegro."-League of Prizren,June 18, 1878
            There are no labor rights,no human rights,etc in their proclamation and formulation of their goals and they remained true to their cause till this day.
            There is no Sultan today and in Albania and Kosovo there is no Shariah law to my knowledge.
            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

            Comment


            • #36
              It depends on the point of view,my good Doctor. You do realise that I am not a warmonger and that I am not gloating over Macedonia's problems.

              For you and me, the idea of Great Albania is an extreme goal that brings nothing else than the pain and destruction to our nations. For the Albanians it is a vice versa, they see us as the oppressors and themselves as victims. What we consider to be bad they see as good. Maybe not even good, but the way how it should be. Now...

              The “spirituality” of Balkan people is, by my opinion, very questionable. And with spirituality comes the religion as well. I don't believe in it or at best that dimension of life maybe exist only in some individuals. All wars fought here were always and only about territory, the well known concept of blood and soil.

              They were fought in the name of many things, God,justice,civilisation,new order you name it, the official mantra is always some higher value, always noble and just,worth dying for. It has to be, in order to hide the true reason, which is primitive,egoistic and narcissistic, translated in short “we want all for us” (lands,resources,people...). I mean,you can't really motivate people to start slaughtering each other by saying, you need to wipe out them so that I could have fifty ten bedroom house,7 cars, yacht,monopoly for me and my family,you need something catchy, abstract that will convince those masses to start killing each other. Than you can have all those things that you think you need at the first place (monopoly,cars,houses,loads of cash that you've earned without any effort). Religion is perfect for that, killing in the NAME of, gives you ultimate justification and removes any sort of guilt or remorse that you might have toward your victims. The only thing that is better than the religion is the concept that promotes same thing, the ideal, all eternal peace and prosperity,but not trough some abstract but trough very real concept of the GREAT STATE.
              So you see, that is the point where Sanjak Wahhabi and the KLA meet and work together. There is no Sultan,or shariah law there,you are right about that, but the promise is there, the promise that once those things come to life, the eternal bliss will accrue. Also the eternal bliss will accrue once all Albanians are united in one great state that no one wants to mess with. I mean the same concept exists with Serbia and Croatia, the dream of one great state that no one messes with and I am sure that there is a plenty of those Great “ideas” of eternal bliss and happiness in the region.

              Those “Great” ideas and the concepts they draw have one common denominator, they are the consequence of domination of some powerful dominion. Ottomans, Hapsburg monarchy, Yugoslavia,Communism,globalism,mythical “New World Order” and so on. Enemy always has to be epic and great, since without its greatness the greatness of the enslaved and heroic nation could not exist. You know, the greater the enemy is the greater the glory of fighting and dying is. And if the enemy doesn't exist, the enemy should be made, since the idea of greatness cannot exist without some epic opponent and the dramatic situation. That is the place where your economic factor comes in.
              You said that the way to reduce ethnic tensions and prevent the war is to create more jobs. How can you remedy the ETHNIC causes of tension with SOCIAL measures? During my deployment in Kosovo, the Albanian houses I've seen were not small and humble sheds, yet they were large houses
              and despite destruction they showed the signs of wealth and lush life. If the poverty was the issue, how come that the majority of crimes in Kosovo, aside from murdering people, was pillaging? What was pillaged if they were poor and there was nothing to steal? Where the money for weapons came for the KLA? For all those Barret 50 cal's, armbrust missiles,stingers,mortars,recoilless rifles,encrypted satellite phones,GPS guidance,thermobaric RPG's, howitzers and tanks,where that money came from? War costs,Albanians had the money to finance it,so social component was not the issue. One day of war in Kosovo has a price tag, for Serbian side it was 1 million Deutsch marks per day, how much was it for the KLA? If they were militarily inferior and poor, how come they decided that the war was the way to go, if they had no chance of winning? The were not poor or militarily inferior, quite contrary they were very well armed and very well financed. No my dear Doctor, you can't solve the ethnic causes with social measures, simply because they are not the same thing.

              Albanians want better life, that is true,they want jobs that is true too, but the problem is that they believe that only in Great Albania they will have the jobs and better life, that only in Great Albania they will feel equal and satisfied.

              Comment


              • #37
                Versus,

                Yes, it depends on the point of view. It also depends how far back you want to go with history on the Balkans to seek answers.

                I do realize you are not warmonger and that you are not gloating over our current situation.

                For you and me, the idea of Great Albania is an extreme goal that brings nothing else than the pain and destruction to our nations.
                True, but it is only that - an idea. You fight ideas with better ideas, bring force in the mix and the idea will eventually win. The proof is my nation, or the Albanians if you wish.

                For the Albanians it is a vice versa, they see us as the oppressors and themselves as victims. What we consider to be bad they see as good. Maybe not even good, but the way how it should be. Now...
                I can totally understand their attitude. In Yugoslavia they were less then us, or Slovenes or Montenegrin, yet they had less rights - Their language was not official, they had no vote in the federal assembly until mid 70s, they were the poorest region...


                The “spirituality” of Balkan people is, by my opinion, very questionable. And with spirituality comes the religion as well. I don't believe in it or at best that dimension of life maybe exist only in some individuals. All wars fought here were always and only about territory, the well known concept of blood and soil.

                They were fought in the name of many things, God,justice,civilisation,new order you name it, the official mantra is always some higher value, always noble and just,worth dying for. It has to be, in order to hide the true reason, which is primitive,egoistic and narcissistic, translated in short “we want all for us” (lands,resources,people...). I mean,you can't really motivate people to start slaughtering each other by saying, you need to wipe out them so that I could have fifty ten bedroom house,7 cars, yacht,monopoly for me and my family,you need something catchy, abstract that will convince those masses to start killing each other. Than you can have all those things that you think you need at the first place (monopoly,cars,houses,loads of cash that you've earned without any effort). Religion is perfect for that, killing in the NAME of, gives you ultimate justification and removes any sort of guilt or remorse that you might have toward your victims. The only thing that is better than the religion is the concept that promotes same thing, the ideal, all eternal peace and prosperity,but not trough some abstract but trough very real concept of the GREAT STATE.
                Don't mix religion and spirituality with what is going on now, you are falling on the same mantra as those poor people willing to die for a higher cause just to make someone rich.


                So you see, that is the point where Sanjak Wahhabi and the KLA meet and work together. There is no Sultan,or shariah law there,you are right about that, but the promise is there, the promise that once those things come to life, the eternal bliss will accrue. Also the eternal bliss will accrue once all Albanians are united in one great state that no one wants to mess with. I mean the same concept exists with Serbia and Croatia, the dream of one great state that no one messes with and I am sure that there is a plenty of those Great “ideas” of eternal bliss and happiness in the region.
                Have you been in all 5 regions (Albania, Kosovo, Southern Serbia, Western Macedonia and North Western Greece) that are about to become a "Great State" by the big plan? I have been to four (never been to Greece). What I can tell you about Albanians is nothing we take for granted. For one they are not as united. Guys in Albania really don't want to mix with our lads - in a hotel on the Albanian Adriatic coast I have witnessed with my own eyes and years how they don't give a family from Tetovo a room, while the hotel was half empty. Those from Struga have real problems understanding Kosovars, etc. etc.

                Those “Great” ideas and the concepts they draw have one common denominator, they are the consequence of domination of some powerful dominion. Ottomans, Hapsburg monarchy, Yugoslavia,Communism,globalism,mythical “New World Order” and so on. Enemy always has to be epic and great, since without its greatness the greatness of the enslaved and heroic nation could not exist. You know, the greater the enemy is the greater the glory of fighting and dying is. And if the enemy doesn't exist, the enemy should be made, since the idea of greatness cannot exist without some epic opponent and the dramatic situation.
                Then why they gave up the fight vs Yugoslavia and instead took on a weak Serbia Why they didn't start the "rebellion" during Croatia and Bosnia wars? Following that logic we should be safe as we are weaker then Albania by many things (population, army...).
                The uprisings or rebellions (at least over here) start when the police is about to break some crime chain.

                That is the place where your economic factor comes in.
                You said that the way to reduce ethnic tensions and prevent the war is to create more jobs. How can you remedy the ETHNIC causes of tension with SOCIAL measures? During my deployment in Kosovo, the Albanian houses I've seen were not small and humble sheds, yet they were large houses and despite destruction they showed the signs of wealth and lush life. If the poverty was the issue, how come that the majority of crimes in Kosovo, aside from murdering people, was pillaging? What was pillaged if they were poor and there was nothing to steal? Where the money for weapons came for the KLA? For all those Barret 50 cal's, armbrust missiles,stingers,mortars,recoilless rifles,encrypted satellite phones,GPS guidance,thermobaric RPG's, howitzers and tanks,where that money came from? War costs,Albanians had the money to finance it,so social component was not the issue. One day of war in Kosovo has a price tag, for Serbian side it was 1 million Deutsch marks per day, how much was it for the KLA? If they were militarily inferior and poor, how come they decided that the war was the way to go, if they had no chance of winning? The were not poor or militarily inferior, quite contrary they were very well armed and very well financed. No my dear Doctor, you can't solve the ethnic causes with social measures, simply because they are not the same thing.
                C'mon my good Versus, we both know those house were bot builded from regular jobs, but from the money coming from the kids in Switzerland, Germany or Italy.

                Albanians want better life, that is true,they want jobs that is true too, but the problem is that they believe that only in Great Albania they will have the jobs and better life, that only in Great Albania they will feel equal and satisfied.
                Thn we should buy them tickets for tour visits of Albania to see what they wish for. Before it is too late and Albania becomes more advanced then us.
                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Well, I want to believe that you are right. We shall see what the future will bring.

                  Comment

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