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What if the Confederates had Gatling guns?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    Finally, I know that if possible the Union will try to bring battle on ground that is favorable to it. However as we both know, lacking the favorable terrain did not stop AoP from attacking. In fact depending on how intuitive the ANV commanders are in using the Gatling, the ANV might well seek out areas to fight in that remove the range advantage.
    The problem with this statement is that Grant made Lee play to his tune once the Overland Campaign started. The only time that Lee wrested the initiative was for a brief moment at North Anna, and even then it was for only a day as Grant realized that his position gave him interior lines that couldn't be overcome through maneuver. Even in that position, which he had moved into overnight and therefore couldn't have prepared solid positions to defend against artillery fire, he didn't have nice grazing fields of fire to maximize the impact of Gatlings prior to "counterbattery" fire. As it was, it was not a tempting target to attack, and so your "killing fields" scenario doesn't play.

    The bottomline is that Grant had the array of forces to be able to flank Lee, and Lee didn't have the space to simply fall back and try to bait Grant into an assault. The impact of Lee giving up ground that he didn't have to give would have had an adverse impact on the Confederacy, especially in the context of his previous operations.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Shek View Post
      The problem with this statement is that Grant made Lee play to his tune once the Overland Campaign started. The only time that Lee wrested the initiative was for a brief moment at North Anna, and even then it was for only a day as Grant realized that his position gave him interior lines that couldn't be overcome through maneuver. Even in that position, which he had moved into overnight and therefore couldn't have prepared solid positions to defend against artillery fire, he didn't have nice grazing fields of fire to maximize the impact of Gatlings prior to "counterbattery" fire. As it was, it was not a tempting target to attack, and so your "killing fields" scenario doesn't play.
      Spotslvania Court House may 9 had an opportunistic chance for the Gatling looking at the admittedly simple maps I can find. What if the Gatling's had been lying in wait when Upton led his attack? Densely packed infantry, good fields of fire and almost ideal set up. Likewise, when Burnside kept feeding men in to the Crater a flying battery of Gatlings could have increased the butchers bill.

      In no way am I say the Gatling would, only that if properly employed it could becuase the opportunities were there.

      The bottomline is that Grant had the array of forces to be able to flank Lee, and Lee didn't have the space to simply fall back and try to bait Grant into an assault. The impact of Lee giving up ground that he didn't have to give would have had an adverse impact on the Confederacy, especially in the context of his previous operations.
      But Grant did launch a number of assaults instead of simply extending his flank. It is these assaults where the opportunities exist.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by zraver View Post
        Spotslvania Court House may 9 had an opportunistic chance for the Gatling looking at the admittedly simple maps I can find. What if the Gatling's had been lying in wait when Upton led his attack? Densely packed infantry, good fields of fire and almost ideal set up. Likewise, when Burnside kept feeding men in to the Crater a flying battery of Gatlings could have increased the butchers bill.

        In no way am I say the Gatling would, only that if properly employed it could becuase the opportunities were there.

        But Grant did launch a number of assaults instead of simply extending his flank. It is these assaults where the opportunities exist.
        1. Upton's assault. It's about 200m from the assault position to the earthworks. When I walk the ground again this summer, I'll check out how pronounced the IV lines are, but in general there is grazing fire available, albeit for only a very short distance. Also, the setting sun was directly in the eyes of Doles' brigade (something I figured out as we walked Upton's assault axis just shy of sunset). With a T&E and range card, not a problem, but is that a TTP that was available (I suspect that traversing wasn't a huge issue - getting the elevation not so much)? While you wouldn't have counterbattery available, the short distance forces the Confederates to reveal their hand ASAP and thus end the assault, or simply get overwhelmed as the initial lines did.

        Colonel Upton's Assault

        2. Grant's assaults. He certainly did attempt numerous assaults instead of flanking. However, all of these are in response to dispositions and movement's that Lee made, resulting in deducing where he had weakened his lines. In most cases, he was correct, but Union elements weren't nimble enough to take advantage, and the ANV was able to react. Given that theme, Lee wouldn't have had Gatlings awaiting.
        "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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        • #49
          Shek, regarding Upton's assault it was 211 yards from point of the monument to the trench wall. And that sun absolutley blinds you in early May around 1800.

          Against a fully allerted enemny it would be a problem. But Dole's troops were not at stand to and, as you know, where caught off guard. Lack of support doomed that attack.

          So here is a variation to this thread.....

          If the Confederates had this weapon so did the Union. To be remotely reasonable and think otherwise is totally unreasonable.

          So what if Grant and Meade had Gatlings to use to support those attacks?

          Think about Saunders Field on 5 May, Getty at Brock Road later that day, Sheridan has them at Todd's Tavern, Wright pushes in a battery against the flank of the Bloody Angle, and on and on and on.

          I can come up with a wide range of other uses.
          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
          Mark Twain

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Shek View Post
            1. Upton's assault. It's about 200m from the assault position to the earthworks. When I walk the ground again this summer, I'll check out how pronounced the IV lines are, but in general there is grazing fire available, albeit for only a very short distance. Also, the setting sun was directly in the eyes of Doles' brigade (something I figured out as we walked Upton's assault axis just shy of sunset). With a T&E and range card, not a problem, but is that a TTP that was available (I suspect that traversing wasn't a huge issue - getting the elevation not so much)? While you wouldn't have counterbattery available, the short distance forces the Confederates to reveal their hand ASAP and thus end the assault, or simply get overwhelmed as the initial lines did.
            Yes, range cards and markers were available, white painted boards or boulders paced out going back to ancient times. Assuming an ambush situation Upton's troops needed a minute and a half to cross the field at double time, 2 minutes at the quick march assuming everything went right. Not much time, but enough. One reason Upton's type of attack wasn't made very often is there is no way to stop if the front ranks fail and break. Its not much different in effect that the barbarian armies blocking each other- the front blocked from retreating away from the gladius wielding terror, and the rear unable to get to forward. The other reason is over penetrating weapons get a chance to kill to birds with one stone.

            Upton used for battle lines totaling 12 regiments. I don't know how many files each line was long or deep. I assume they were formed up after exiting the ravine and did not attack from the ravine. It it had been a trap, his men would have gotten butchered.


            2. Grant's assaults. He certainly did attempt numerous assaults instead of flanking. However, all of these are in response to dispositions and movement's that Lee made, resulting in deducing where he had weakened his lines. In most cases, he was correct, but Union elements weren't nimble enough to take advantage, and the ANV was able to react. Given that theme, Lee wouldn't have had Gatlings awaiting.
            What I was trying to imply is that having Gatlings, Lee might make a move to lure Grant in to catch the Federals with their pants down and inflict the type of losses Southern strategy kept calling for- but kept falling short of delivering...

            AR, the Union did have Gatlings, and rejected them. Granted, if the South acquired/made some and used them to good effect the AoP would take another look at them and if deciding they were in fact a good investment rapidly swamp what ever numbers the south has. But I've never argued the Gatling would let the South win a battle of attrition. The South's only hope was to inflict a fast paced unsuspected loss of life so grave on the Union it affected the 1864 Election.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by zraver View Post
              Yes, range cards and markers were available, white painted boards or boulders paced out going back to ancient times. Assuming an ambush situation Upton's troops needed a minute and a half to cross the field at double time, 2 minutes at the quick march assuming everything went right. Not much time, but enough. One reason Upton's type of attack wasn't made very often is there is no way to stop if the front ranks fail and break. Its not much different in effect that the barbarian armies blocking each other- the front blocked from retreating away from the gladius wielding terror, and the rear unable to get to forward. The other reason is over penetrating weapons get a chance to kill to birds with one stone.
              211 yards with adrenaline is a minute or less. The Gatling of the time had a max rate of fire of 150 rounds, and given the way the terrain sloped, every reason to fire high.

              Originally posted by zraver
              Upton used for battle lines totaling 12 regiments. I don't know how many files each line was long or deep. I assume they were formed up after exiting the ravine and did not attack from the ravine. It it had been a trap, his men would have gotten butchered.
              Actually, it's not a ravine, but a very gentle draw that's covered and concealed until the assault position.

              Originally posted by zraver
              What I was trying to imply is that having Gatlings, Lee might make a move to lure Grant in to catch the Federals with their pants down and inflict the type of losses Southern strategy kept calling for- but kept falling short of delivering...
              Can you provide the quotes that this is what Southern strategy "kept calling for"? Lee sought decisive victory, not attrition.
              "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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              • #52
                I'm way out of my league with this discussion, but I have a basic objection... the Gatlings of that era were mounted similarly to light field cannon, correct? And the operators were quite exposed, yet forced to operate well inside the envelope of shoulder arms like the .58's that both sides used.

                If I had a Gatling killing my men, I'd assign every swinging dick with a Springfield to start shooting at those SOB's.

                Now, if the Gatling was dismounted from its carriage or used in a WW1 fashion with a bit of protection, then I cannot object.

                Carry on! :)

                Oh yes, this thread reminds me of a favorite British Ditty from their African experiences vs hostile tribes:

                Remember, whatever happens, we have got
                The Maxim gun, and they have not.
                Last edited by Chogy; 22 Apr 12,, 14:08.

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                • #53
                  Chogy,


                  You win a cigar. I made that point several pages ago and it seems have been rejected out of hand.

                  Not bad for a zoomie!!!!
                  “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                  Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Were the Confederate breastworks laid along the crest or did Union troops have to cross over the top of the crest to see the rebel defenses. If Shek is correct then the draw provided a covered approach to within a couple hundred yards of the Confederate lines. Could Union forces emerge from the wood and still be sheltered from fire as they formed ranks before ascending the slope?
                    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                      Chogy,


                      You win a cigar. I made that point several pages ago and it seems have been rejected out of hand.

                      Not bad for a zoomie!!!!
                      No it was not rejected, I pointed out that the gun and carriage are not the same and did not have to be used on an artillery carriage when used in a defensive role.

                      S2, the pictures from the park show good fields of fire once you leave the woods. In May the grass would not yet be tall enough to significantly reduce the sight lines.

                      Shek,

                      http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-2536601361.html

                      By the end of 1863 Confederate officials hoped to defeat the Union at the ballot box. They implemented a defensive strategy, hoping to prolong the war and break the Northerners’ will to continue fighting. If this strategy worked, Southern leaders were convinced that in the November 1864 elections the North would elect a Democrat who would enter into immediate peace negotiations to end the war and leave the Confederate nation intact.

                      Sources

                      Bruce Catton, A Stillness at Appomattox (Garden City, N.Y.: Double-day, 1953);

                      William S. McFeely, Grant: A Biography (New York: Norton, 1981).

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by zraver View Post
                        No it was not rejected, I pointed out that the gun and carriage are not the same and did not have to be used on an artillery carriage when used in a defensive role.
                        Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've suggested employing the Gatling guns in a role similar to the flying artillery of the period. How are you going to do that without a carriage mount?
                        "Nature abhors a moron." - H.L. Mencken

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Genosaurer View Post
                          Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've suggested employing the Gatling guns in a role similar to the flying artillery of the period. How are you going to do that without a carriage mount?
                          I've suggested a number of options. Unlike cannon the Gatling was light. 594lbs vs 1880lbs for a 10 pounder parrot rifle. This gives the weapon a bit of flexibility in the discussion. My argument isn't how to use the Gatling, but the impact it might have had if properly used.

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                          • #58
                            Virtual Tour Stop, Upton's Road - Fredericksburg & Spotsylvania National Military Park

                            From the NPS website.

                            It took the assault column, 3 regiments across by 4 deep, each regiment in column of companies, less than one minute to go from the monument to hit Dole's trench. You actually do not come into sight of the trench line until you are about 150 yards out. The Confederates had no pickets out...they had been forced back by the Federals.

                            That is not enough time to react and it was not enough time to react. The way the Confederate defenses were built with laterals actually helped Upton's troops hold the lines open and hindered the Confedete counterattacks. They also would have hindered effective fire from any Gatlings.

                            Z, the light mount may work in fixed defenses like Petersburg.

                            During the Overland Campaign they would have had to be kept on the artillery mount since it was a mobile campaign. Lee had to be able reposition his artillery...think the same for the Gatlings. So they are on a larger and higher mount making them more vulbnerable.
                            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                            Mark Twain

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by zraver View Post
                              Shek,

                              http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-2536601361.html

                              By the end of 1863 Confederate officials hoped to defeat the Union at the ballot box. They implemented a defensive strategy, hoping to prolong the war and break the Northerners’ will to continue fighting. If this strategy worked, Southern leaders were convinced that in the November 1864 elections the North would elect a Democrat who would enter into immediate peace negotiations to end the war and leave the Confederate nation intact.

                              Sources

                              Bruce Catton, A Stillness at Appomattox (Garden City, N.Y.: Double-day, 1953);

                              William S. McFeely, Grant: A Biography (New York: Norton, 1981).
                              Z,

                              You've quoted a tertiary source at best here - I'm looking for primary sources that support a casualty producing strategy hypothesis as opposed to an ex-post facto "this was their best strategy," which is a common ex-post facto strategy and one that should not be conflated as an ex ante strategy.

                              Southern strategy is typically described as offensive-defensive, with Lee still searching for that decisive victory during the Overland Campaign. Hood's employment of the Army of Tennessee doesn't point to a produce casualties strategy given his aggressive offensive maneuverings prior to the election. Lee's employment of the Army of Northern Virginia doesn't point to a produce casualties strategy given his aggressive counterattacks throughout the Overland and Petersburg Campaigns.

                              Furthermore, any defeat of Lincoln means that Lincoln implements Plan B, Abraham Lincoln's White House - Post-Election Cabinet Meeting, November 11, 1864. While the role in Southern will/actions in the wake of a Lincoln defeat is a counterfactual that we cannot measure, we can measure that absent the defeat, it only took the Union one month beyond the inauguration to break the ANV and only another two weeks to break the AoT. If Grant didn't have the luxury of waiting until the spring thaw, I don't find it hard to imagine that timeline slipping far enough left to accelerate the Confederacy defeat prior to McClellan's inauguration.
                              "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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                              • #60
                                A.R. Reply

                                "...You actually do not come into sight of the trench line until you are about 150 yards out...."

                                Out from the woods?

                                The marker in the photo is maybe five yards removed from the edge of the tree line. That means the Union forces could re-assemble on the cleared slope evident from the photos and begin their uphill advance before cresting the top and entering the line-of-sight of the Confederate breastworks, correct?
                                "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                                "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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