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Günter Grass got persona nongrata by Israel

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  • #16
    Seems a bit stupid politicaly - so what that he disagrees? By keeping him out you look bad and it hits the papers. Stupid move.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
      Of course we do, but A: They are Israeli citizens that can say whatever they want about Israel, B: Most Israelis are not world famous artists that can reach millions of people to spread their message.
      From that reply one would get an impression that only anonymous Israeli citizens can criticize the moves of Israeli government if they wish to visit Israel at some point in their life.

      Moreover, when you consider that Roger Waters wasn't the exception, he's the norm, I said I found it weird that Mr. Grass was PNG'd.
      Now he is (more) famous. Guess more will follow to get a PNG status and join the club. Bad move.
      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

      Comment


      • #18
        Marcel Reich-Ranicki talked about Günter Grass :
        It is a disgusting poem !


        Source :
        http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleto...-11710933.html



        The following is an interview of Frankfurtet Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ) with Marcel Reich-Ranicki.

        What did you think as you have read the poem of Günter Grass « What must be said » the first time ?
        That is a meanness. That was the first. I was completely clear, that Israel would threaten world peace and such these things. That was enough. That is a meanness to publish such a thing. Moreover, it is also utter nonsense. Israel is naturally interested in world peace.

        Did you have interesse in literary poem ?
        No, absolutely not.

        What has repelled you particularly ?
        Oh well, I have to take the text as it is. And then you see that it has a certain specific intention. That is very clear.

        What is the intention ?
        To attack the jewish state.

        Why did Grass make that ?
        He did it for a very simple reason. He, Grass, was always interested in Sensations, Affairs and Scandals. He has achieved little with his poems and actually written only one truly sensational novel, « The Tin Drum ». He has accomplished with his literary work, what he could. He has nothing more to offer. It is no coincidence that he now attacks the Jews.
        He has understood something, what someone else before him understood in the same way.
        And this someone else is Martin Walser. He understood, when you attack the Jews, you can achieve all kinds. And in fact, both he and Walser, achieved a lot.

        What ?
        Well, a big scandal. A hug attention that a writer usually does not get it.
        But the work of Grass was previously not characterised by attacks on Jews…
        No,that I did not even say. But the work of Grass is characterised by attacks.
        He was always ready to attack.

        You mean he was always a good strategist in the battle for Public Attention ? An advertising strategist on his own behalf ?
        Without a doubt.

        It is here a unique case even for a clever literary strategist, that prime ministers, foreign ministers and ambassadors from around the worls have expressed themselves about a poem. How did he do it ?
        You know, when Palestinians or Arabs agitate against Israel, it´s nothing special.
        But when Günter Grass does it and proceeds sharp action against the Jews, then it is naturally an event.

        In the daily newspaper « Die Welt » standing next to the picture of Grass the heading « The eternal anti-Semite ». Is there something true there ?
        Of course, I mean there is something to it. He has written this meanness and it is seen by him as an instant success.

        Mainly through the empty rhetoric, we may not say in Germany. The alleged break the taboo that one should not criticize Israel in Germany….
        Oh jah, the taboo. It is actually not at all. He wanted only to make sure to have the big crash. It is of course no coincidence, that this poem was published before the Passover Celebration, one of the most important festivals of the Jews. That is very clear. The Arabs, the Palestinians have done always such things with the Jews. Bevor the Passover came the sharpest attacks.


        This means that is a planned strike of Günter Grass ?
        Yes. No doubt.

        Günter Grass has derived the prohibition of the German reunification from the crime of Auschwitz and emphasized the « lead sheath of German guilt », which is (according to him) never put off. Do you think this lead jacket would be for him too heavy towards the end of his life? Did he want finally rid of it?
        Yes. That is exactly right. He had wanted to get rid of it. (But) he did not want it any more. And then you haven´t to forget, the story with the Waffen SS, his membership, the story that he carried around with him for a lifetime and had not written about it, not treated it.
        That was always a particularly heavy burden that he carried within himself in secret.

        He has finally made itself public.
        One thing is certain. He wanted to have a very strong response. And he has achieved.

        From the beginning a second person belongs also to the public person Grass. His counterpart. The critic. You. You have reviewed almost all of his books.
        Oh yes. I have discussed many things about him, and certainly much favorable.

        You have both benefited from the growing fame of Günter Grass.
        Yes, maybe.

        You like preferably always his lyrics.
        Yes, that's true.

        What did you like his poems ?
        The great clarity. The brightness, which he reached with his poems. And that his poems were rarely abused for embassies or scandals. He has however never reached a large audience with his lyrics. He was mainly interested in scandals. Therefore, the poetry was actually not ideal for that.

        Is there a Grass-poem, which you particularly want to remember ?
        Yes, especially in the last volume, « Last Dances », which contains some very good poems.

        And from the novels ?
        Yes, of course, « The Tin Drum ». And not much else. A bit like as Thomas Mann. He had also written the best book with « The Buddenbrooks » at the beginning. But afterwards, Thomas Mann had at least still « The Magic Mountain », « The Josephs » novels, « The Felix Krull ». After all there was at least something else. With Grass ...

        Nothing more ?
        No, I will not say there was not anything more. But then it came « The Rat », for example ...

        Well, yes, you need not to name right the worst….
        Not a good book, really not a good book.

        I remember, for example, that you said on television about his novel, « Crabwalk » about the sinking of the (refugee ship) « Gustloff », you would have cried while reading, you were so overwhelmed…
        Hmm yes, that was pretty good. No masterpiece, no work of genius. But very well written. Not as brilliant as « The Tin Drum », which will remain, because it is so humorous.

        Humorous ?
        Yes, incredibly humorous. Almost on every page.

        So just again we have to remind you of your first opinion on « The Tin Drum ».
        Yes.

        Was not so favorable.
        No, that was very unfavorable. But is it wrong?

        You yourself had said three years later, you were wrong.
        I underestimated that he was a great humorist, yes.

        You wrote in your first criticism, it would be too informal, full of stories, but untamed. As gypsy music. But you have then taken it back.
        No! That was not with the gypsy music. There was nevertheless something right turn.

        What had led you to verify again your first judment ?
        The people were so carried away from the fact that I've changed my views and still found there is already some truth. He had described many things fabulous.

        You knew Grass already when he was still writing « The Tin Drum ».
        Do you remember your first encounter ?
        Yes, of course. That was in Warsaw, 1958. My friend Andrzej Wirth had asked me to take care of this young German writer. Grass published then two dramas. Veeeery bad dramas. But well, I said, I take care of him.

        What was your first impression ?
        He scared me. He had something wild. He looked like a Bulgarian partisan, not as a young writer from West Germany, as he sat there, in the « Hotel Bristol » in Warsaw 1958. When I arrived, he fell asleep, it was noon. He said he had already been drinking a bottle of vodka before.

        Have you got along well together ?
        Oh, no. I spoke of Thomas Mann and Hermann Hesse. He was not at all interested, and he made me understand that I would have no idea of the contemporary literature. Only when I asked him what he wrote himself, he got a little bit under way.

        What did he tell ?
        He writes about a dwarf in a mental hospital. Honestly I was a little bit skeptical.

        Later, in group 47, which consisted largely of former Wehrmacht soldiers, he was one of the few, who were interested for your time in the Warsaw ghetto.
        Yes. Some of it he even used for his literary. In « Diary of a Snail », or in the story of « Doubt », that is my story.

        As you pointed out that it´ll be due for a fee, he was pale.
        Yeah! He then invited my wife and me to butt-eating, and I was allowed to just pick one of his prints. He wrote underneath: "My friend Marcel Reich-Ranicki."

        If you enjoyed it ?
        Oh, that was just a flattery from him.

        Have you ever referred to him as a friend ?
        No.

        The book in which your reviews of Günter Grass are summarized, was prefixed with a quote from his novel « Dog Years ».
        Show it me! (reading). It is naturally fabulous. « The Vistula is broad, becoming always more widely, in spite of the many sand banks of navigable stream." This is obviously brilliant. (laughing to himself.) I know it because I have yet lived on the Vistula, at that time as a child.

        In the era of German literature, which you attended as a critic, he has been the most important.
        Yes, of course, the most important. With Martin Walser allwas so shaky from the beginning. Uwe Johnson was very good. But there was no author for the very big audience. There was a figure that could be the opposite character of Grass : Wolfgang Koeppen. But Koeppen has disappointed us all. He should have been the major figure of the postwar German literature, such as Thomas Mann in the first half of the century.

        There was not such figure in your era.
        No.

        In Grass's work anti-Semitic clichés do not occur.
        No, do not occur. On the contrary. For example I found the Jewish characters in «The Tin Drum» very well. He has replaced and defeated completely anti-Semitism. But in the old age, everything changes. Because the memory to the youth is stronger. And you know what? I think that was a huge blow to him that Walser has written this book, « Death of a Critic. » That was very subdued and cautious. But it was a book about the Jews. No question about it. That was a clever move by Grass, now follow suit.

        That is horrible: that the position of Grass now towards the end of his life reverses into its opposite ?
        Yes, there is no doubt about it.

        Let's look at the poem again but in more detail. Is this even a poem ?
        (Taking it on hand.) No. I see no rhyme. Well, not rhymes have to be. Well, then there must be rhythm. No. Is not it. Then it must be the vocabulary, the words, the melody. There must be something. (reading) It's awful. There is nothing poetic. (reading) "With the last of ink." This is of course very well.

        Do you find it well ?
        The picture ? Yes, I find that very well.

        Is not that a little worn ? Does Grass write with ink at all ?
        No ! Certainly not ! That's only a symbol !

        If Grass had submitted this to you as a literary editor of the FAZ, what would you say ?
        I would tell him, « it is not impossible ». It's really bad in every verse. Each verse is bad.

        Up to the symbol….
        Yes. With the last of ink. Last ink, which sounds very good. Damn it! (beating on the armrest of his chair. Reading further.) Well. « The verdict is familiar with anti-Semitism. ». It is also dangerous, this line. The word « familiar » - yeah, they say that then. It's a disgusting poem. It turns the world upside down. That a country wants to wipe another country, Iran wants to wipe outIsrael,which the President (Mahmud Admadinedschad) announced over and over again, and Günter Grass writes poetry the opposite. He whispered suddenly. « That another country » - terrible! He's even stepped up with the words « poetry must be very clear. » And now he whispered. This is gruesome. Really horrible. (Reading further.). Everything is unbearable when you read this. « declared as compensation with nimble lip. » . . Oh dear, oh dear. Grass is still unclear if he basically wants to conceal something. As with « Peeling the Onion », whereby he spoke or whispers only about his SS membership. « The Double Rune », « The Man That I Was" and so on. Terrible !

        Would you say: Günter Grass is an anti-Semite ?

        No. I mean something else. I mean, there are a large number of citizens in this country, fifty years ago, thirty years ago and nowaday, have the anti-Semitic tendency. Grass expresses it only.

        Do you fear that ?

        Oh well. The fact that many people like to hear it and have a willingness to take note about it, I know, that's clear for me.

        Does it not surprise you ?

        Oh, no.

        The fear is always there ?

        Yes. Oh, it's all terrible !

        --------------------------------------------------------------------

        …and till now hundreds innocent people DIED every day in Syrian, massacred by Assad´s bandit army. And the western intellectual still loses NO CLEAR WORD about it……

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Doktor View Post
          From that reply one would get an impression that only anonymous Israeli citizens can criticize the moves of Israeli government if they wish to visit Israel at some point in their life.


          Now he is (more) famous. Guess more will follow to get a PNG status and join the club. Bad move.
          Wow, you're really not getting the point, are you? I said it was stupid to not let Grass in, especially when you consider that Roger Waters has not been a friend to Israel and we let him in to perform. You asked what was wrong with Waters, I told you, and yet somehow you're reaching the conclusion that only anonymous Israelis can criticize Israel. It's the exact opposite! People can (and do) criticize Israel and are still invited in and allowed to perform.

          Dok, you're really barking up the wrong tree here...
          Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

          Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
            Wow, you're really not getting the point, are you? I said it was stupid to not let Grass in, especially when you consider that Roger Waters has not been a friend to Israel and we let him in to perform. You asked what was wrong with Waters, I told you, and yet somehow you're reaching the conclusion that only anonymous Israelis can criticize Israel. It's the exact opposite! People can (and do) criticize Israel and are still invited in and allowed to perform.

            Dok, you're really barking up the wrong tree here...
            Ben,

            IDK who is not getting it, I am just replying to what you post.

            I have no problem in countries doing what they think is the best for them. Their actions are later judged.

            I never asked what's wrong with Waters, Colonel did.

            What I asked is what happens if Israeli citizens criticize Israeli moves the way Waters or Grass did. Your response...

            A: They are Israeli citizens that can say whatever they want about Israel,
            But Grass can't and is sanctioned for something Israeli citizen wouldn't be. Now turn it any way you want it, he is PNG'd by Israeli MFA for what he said.

            B: Most Israelis are not world famous artists that can reach millions of people to spread their message.
            So those world famous artist should be quiet (?!) and shouldn't express their opinion (even if wrong)?
            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

            Comment


            • #21
              Both of those replies to why Waters shouldn't have been let in, not to why Grass wasn't let in
              Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

              Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                I never asked what's wrong with Waters, Colonel did.
                No, I didn't.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  No, I didn't.
                  My bad, the flag confused me. Sorry.
                  No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                  To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Israel must not be out of critic.
                    It's disgrace that any critical view of Israeli politics is immediately labeled as anti-semitic by so called international community which mostly consists of self-appointed "leaders" of public opinion of mostly Jewish origins.

                    In the eastern countries where Jewish population is marginal or non-existent public opinion towards Israel and Iran is much more balanced.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I agree with you that it should be labeled anti-Semitic, but you're mistaken if you think that EVERY criticism is deemed anti-Semitic. And you might want to rein your conspiracy theories in, the "self-appointed "leaders" of public opinion" of the "so called international community" are not "of mostly Jewish origins."

                      Welcome to the 21st century. I'm Ben, pleased to meet you
                      Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                      Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Ben&Andrew,did you count them all or checked their pedigree?What I saw happening is that for whatever reason deemed anti-semitic,some Jewish organisation(s) demand apologies,ask for resignations and generally have their pov all over the media.So you don't need that many ''leaders'' when you have the usual suspects doing the work and repeating same ole platitudes.Mr. Grass is of course lucky he didn't landed in jail in his home country.
                        Funny thing is that the Jews let the impression they're somehow untouchable and above all others by riding such a high horse.True or not,it's a case where perception matters the most.And it leads to rejection of the very message drummed by the establishment.Anyway,in Eastern countries anything that has a stint of official propaganda is immediately rejected as dirty and the messengers as scum.
                        Those who know don't speak
                        He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Andrew stated that the international community consists "mostly" of self-appointed "leaders" of public opinion of "mostly" Jewish origins.

                          If that were true, then Israel would not be as vilified as it is and would not have more UNSC and UNGA resolutions condemning them then every other nation in the world combined.

                          I think it was stupid to not let this guy in, free speech is free speech, after all, but to claim that the world is run by Jews is just plain stupid.
                          Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                          Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                            you're mistaken if you think that EVERY criticism is deemed anti-Semitic
                            True. It's mostly anti-zionism that's labeled anti-semitic, of course with anti-zionism per default being criticism of the Israeli national self-understanding. Kinda laughable considering the most ardent anti-zionists i know are jews themselves.

                            Originally posted by andrew View Post
                            In the eastern countries where Jewish population is marginal or non-existent public opinion towards Israel and Iran is much more balanced.
                            If by that you mean that the population of most Eastern European countries seems to be stuck even a decade earlier than the British in their mindset you're right.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Everybody here agrees it was stupid.I don't believe Jews run the world,but what is undeniable is they have a disproportionate influence.This isn't prejudice or anti-anything.
                              From the Jewish side you get a similar reaction when some hooligan draws a swastika,Gunther Grass is PND in Israel,somebody claims IDF acts as Nazis or some public person makes a joke about Jews at a private party.Now,this is the sort of stupid that has consequences.It treats everything with the same measure and as a result Israel and the Jews receive a negative reaction of a similar sort.
                              Those who know don't speak
                              He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                We don't know who really runs the world, how can we say they're Jews?
                                sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                                If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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