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Communist German/Soviet Pact against Allies in 1939

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  • #61
    Because they're Germans.And precisely because the Commie Germans will face a more vicious opposition.Thus a more violent fight.
    Also there's the potential for an uprising if the Allies enter Germany.The Hungarian Red Army and the Commie state worked fine as long as the commisars were able to shoot people.But after the defeat and the advance of a coherent opposing force they melted away quite fast.

    And no,you didn't answered the question.I didn't asked how many former Czarist officers joined the Reds,but how many were active when the war started.And while there were some,most senior commanders(from colonel up) had a proper biography.Also the German Red Army is made from the scratch,almost like the Wehrmacht.But there's no bother for the Soviets to send advisors.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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    • #62
      Originally posted by zraver View Post
      2. The German communists get a later start than Stalin, why do you expect them to move faster?
      I'm not precisely sure about the background of this timeline, but the only way a communist Germany works is if it starts off rather early, either using Spartacus in 1918 or the Bavarian Soviet Republic in 1919. That gives 'em a headstart on Stalin actually. And a communist Germany would be based in traditional Bolshevism. Not a good recipe for working alongside Stalin.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Mihais View Post
        If you can argue that a colonel,major and captain of the Reichswehr CANNOT be purged I'd gladly hear how many similar ranked officers of the Imperial Army were still active in the Red army of 1939?
        the stake you raised is too high , if a officer was a major in 1917 ( like LEEB or RUNDSTEDT ) by 1939 it would already be in position to command a army group or a army.
        Ivan Tyulenev , iirc was a lieutenant.

        nevertheless a colonel in the German army of 1917 simply does not have enough clout to be a serious threat , even if his rank puts him in a position of regimental commander
        there are 800 other regimental commanders just like him .
        Last edited by 1979; 01 Apr 12,, 14:07.
        J'ai en marre.

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        • #64
          Umm, the German Imperial Army had plenty of communists and social democrats serving in it. A lot of young leftist leaders were WW1 soldiers.

          Notable examples would be e.g. Ernst Thälmann (KPD leader, killed at Buchenwald 1944), Rudolf Egelhofer (leader of the Bavarian Red Army, assassinated 1919), Max Levien (leader of Munich Miliary Soviet, purged by Stalin in 1937), Hans Kippenberger (co-leader of 1923 Hamburg Insurrection, purged by Stalin in 1937), Gerhart Eisler (Komintern functionary, HUAC victim, GDR press minister), Hermann Remmele (co-leader of Mannheim Soviet Republic, leader of the 100,000-man Antifascist Combat League from 1930, purged by Stalin in 1939).

          Plenty of potential there.

          Although stemming from the combination i'd rather see a communist Germany in the 1930s being in opposition to Stalin - a mid-30s government would be formed by exactly those people who in history had fled to the SU when the Nazis took over and who were purged by Stalin in the late 30s.
          Last edited by kato; 01 Apr 12,, 17:30.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Mihais View Post
            Because they're Germans.And precisely because the Commie Germans will face a more vicious opposition.Thus a more violent fight.
            Also there's the potential for an uprising if the Allies enter Germany.The Hungarian Red Army and the Commie state worked fine as long as the commisars were able to shoot people.But after the defeat and the advance of a coherent opposing force they melted away quite fast.

            And no,you didn't answered the question.I didn't asked how many former Czarist officers joined the Reds,but how many were active when the war started.And while there were some,most senior commanders(from colonel up) had a proper biography.Also the German Red Army is made from the scratch,almost like the Wehrmacht.But there's no bother for the Soviets to send advisors.
            I showed that former czarist officers who commanded battalions and regiments in WWI rose to the very top of the Soviet army before 1937. The purge forced most out of course, but most were also near retirement and so the absolute number of potential people to consider was already dropping sharply by the time of the purges. People age after all.

            As for a more vicious opposition, where was the opposition to the Nazis at the higher levels of German society? The classes that controlled Germany were surprisngly compliant so ong as they thought thier personal feifs were safe. The Nazi's used this to gain control, I simply postulate the commies will as well.

            Kato, in this scenario the GCP roughly follows the nazi time line the change in history being Hitler's death in a gas attack in Oct 1918.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by zraver View Post
              Kato, in this scenario the GCP roughly follows the nazi time line the change in history being Hitler's death in a gas attack in Oct 1918.
              That wouldn't lead to a communist government, that would lead to a civil war around 1935.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
                the browns were considered a usefule buffer against the red.
                if the browns were considered a useful buffer against the reds, why did poland, Czechoslovakia, belgium, france surrounded this buffer with fortifications ?
                J'ai en marre.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by kato View Post
                  That wouldn't lead to a communist government, that would lead to a civil war around 1935.
                  Why? It didn't before, it got close but the right wing got lucky when the nazi's were able to reach past the traditional right wing supporters and into the working classes. If the Nazis had not arrived on scene Germany may well have gone communist.

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                  • #69
                    Come on.You know why.

                    Z,it started on whether or not senior German commanders of WW2 could have still been active and in position of authority.Yeah,some rose during the war,but the talent selection happened under the watch of the WW1 era officers.It is debatable whether the Commie German soldiers of WW1 could have turned into an officer corp as good as the Wehrmacht possesed historically.I have serious doubts about it.
                    As for the lack of resistance to the Nazis,let's not put hindsight into forethought.At the time Nazis,although disagreeable in some respects,were a force bent on reviving Germany and keeping the Reds down.They did not shot Krupp or Porsche,nor did they sent Kurt Tank to work at Dachau at gunpoint.
                    Those who know don't speak
                    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                      They did not shot Krupp or Porsche,nor did they sent Kurt Tank to work at Dachau at gunpoint.
                      let Rohm run lose and that likely to happen :whome:
                      Last edited by 1979; 01 Apr 12,, 19:31.
                      J'ai en marre.

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                      • #71
                        True,but it didn't happen.Instead Rohm got fresh new holes.In the end the faith of the German elites was not misplaced.The Reds won't talk with them,but shoot them on the spot and everyone sane knew that.So no chance any German elite ever talks to the commies.
                        Those who know don't speak
                        He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by zraver View Post
                          the right wing got lucky when the nazi's were able to reach past the traditional right wing supporters and into the working classes.
                          Nothing lucky about it, that was very specific background planning exploiting current populist themes.

                          Provided the Nazis are not on the scene in their original showing in 1932, probably a weakish Center-Right-Extreme-Right coalition would take over at that time, continuing along the lines of the original Brüning and von Papen governments in 1932 to 1933. von Papen attempted to lure the Nazis into a coalition to broaden his supporter base, trying to sweeten the deal by repealing the outlawing of the SA. This act resulted in heavy riots in Berlin with several hundred firefights, resulting in 82 dead in a single night. Hitler's original big strategy was to resist von Papen's suggestion of supporting him, resulting in von Papen's government ultimately collapsing and the next election three months later bringing Hitler to power.

                          A weakish nazi party might easily fall for von Papen in 1932, resulting in the government moving further to the right, and the Antifascist Combat League, the Iron Front and insurgent Prussian police units (together up to a million men in 1933) taking up arms against the right-wing Harzburg Alliance, leading into a short, brutal civil war - say throughout 1933-34. In order to get the desired results, the nazis would probably lose this war (not unlikely), with a vague, loose social-democrat and communist alliance taking over. Insert a couple uprisings in the following 3-4 years until a purge in particular in the military quietens the situations.
                          Last edited by kato; 01 Apr 12,, 20:31.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by kato View Post
                            Nothing lucky about it, that was very specific background planning exploiting current populist themes.

                            Provided the Nazis are not on the scene in their original showing in 1932, probably a weakish Center-Right-Extreme-Right coalition would take over at that time, continuing along the lines of the original Brüning and von Papen governments in 1932 to 1933. von Papen attempted to lure the Nazis into a coalition to broaden his supporter base, trying to sweeten the deal by repealing the outlawing of the SA. This act resulted in heavy riots in Berlin with several hundred firefights, resulting in 82 dead in a single night. Hitler's original big strategy was to resist von Papen's suggestion of supporting him, resulting in von Papen's government ultimately collapsing and the next election three months later bringing Hitler to power.

                            A weakish nazi party might easily fall for von Papen in 1932, resulting in the government moving further to the right, and the Antifascist Combat League, the Iron Front and insurgent Prussian police units (together up to a million men in 1933) taking up arms against the right-wing Harzburg Alliance, leading into a short, brutal civil war - say throughout 1933-34. In order to get the desired results, the nazis would probably lose this war (not unlikely), with a vague, loose social-democrat and communist alliance taking over. Insert a couple uprisings in the following 3-4 years until a purge in particular in the military quietens the situations.
                            It was lucky, what set the Nazi's apart from other right wing groups was their ability to transform themselves from regional or single issue party into a party with broad appeal among the working class. Non of the other right wing parties had been able to do that. They were either to narrowly issued focused or too regional. This diluted their power and set them at odds with one another.

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                            • #74
                              So what might a Volksheer and Volksluftwaffe of a Moscow controlled Communist Germany in 1939 look like?

                              Army,

                              Size, although the army will undoutably be bigger than the 100,000 allowed by the treaty ending WWI, it is unlikely to be allowed to grow big enough to threaten an invasion of the Soviet Union, or repel an invasion from the same. However it will need to be big enough to fend off Poland or join in Soviet operations against Poland and also fend off France and Czechoslovakia.

                              The French peace time army in France was 20 infantry divisions, 2 mechanized infantry divisions and 5 cavalry divisions plus 8 colonial divisions in its empire. Reserve formations bring the total of infantry divisions up to 86 and by May 1940 with war time expansion there is a force of 86 infantry divisions, 5 mechanized infantry divisions, 5 mechanized cavalry divisions, 8 cavalry divisions and 3 armored divisions for a total of around 107 field divisions plus fortress troops.

                              Poland has 26 infantry divisions on active duty plus 4 forming plus a 11 cavalry brigades,. Poland also has mountain brigades and other units but is short of tanks. There are 9 reserve divisions.

                              Czechoslovakia has 4 fast divisions of a tank brigade and cavalry brigade, 1 motorized infantry divisions and 20 infantry divisions some of which are fortress troops.

                              Italy has 20 infantry divisions, 3 motorized divisions, 2 tank divisions and 5 alpine divisions.

                              Total force facing Germany in peace time is 90 infantry divisions, 23 mobile divisions (armored, cavalry, motorized, mechanized). But balanced against the need to defend against 113 divisions is the need to be unable to repel a Soviet invasion. The USSR in 1939 in the West has 87 infantry divisions (110 counting territorial units), 44 cavalry divisions and 25 tank brigades for a total division strength of around 169 divisions with reserves, political and naval units pushing that to around 180

                              So a GUSR army of 60 divisions plus fortress troops (1/3ish the size of the USSR) is reasonable. Although Stalin is likely to limit reserve formations to prevent a German surge. This gives the German communists the single biggest military in Western Europe, big enough to beat any two comers in fact, but not big enough to threaten Moscow's control.

                              The size limit imposed by Moscow is one reason the communist may go down roughly similar lines as the historical WWII German military with its focus on panzers and mechanized divisions. So 7 big panzer divisions, 3 light panzer divisions, 5 motorized divisions, 1 mountain division and 3 cavalry divisions plus 39 infantry divisions and 2 fortress divisions. This gives Germany 1 one division lead in mobile assets, although the German tanks are concentrated unlike the allies. The allied advantage is infantry, but facing Germany on three sides no one power is bigger. Plus the Czechs, who before the fall of Austria could likely have fended off Germany forever have now been outflanked.

                              Equipment as established by my scenario is mostly Soviet T-26 tanks which are upgraded version of the British Vickers 6 ton. The Soviet version had already added 4 tons of weight and German mods are likely to add some more weight. Obvious German mods are adding a radio a more powerful German engine and better optics. The 45mm gun is excellent but the DT machine gun will probably be replaced with the Mg34. The German engine will be important for some of the panzer divisions who copied the Soviet practice of adding 30mm applique armor to their T-26's after the lessons in Finland.

                              These up armored tanks are likely grouped in breakthrough battalions 1 per each of the big panzer divisions. The light divisions likely have the Bt-3 or 5 tanks for mobility. Plus the BT tanks with their bigger turret offer a version for infantry support armed with either an imported 76.2mm gun or a 75mm L/24 howitzer.

                              So a GUSR OOB might be equipped with divisions that look like this.

                              1939 GUSR Panzer divisions 2x panzer regiments x3 panzer battalions. 1st panzer battalion is equipped with up armored T-26. panzer grenadier regiment, artillery regiment, engineer battalion, AAA battalion, AT battalion recon battalion (motorcycles and armored cars)

                              1939 GUSR Light division 1x panzer regiment of BT tanks, 2x panzer grenadier regiments (1x half track 1x truck) artillery regiment, engineer battalion, AAA battalion, AT battalion, recon battalion (motorcycles and armored cars).

                              1939 GUSR Motorized division 3x motorized regiments, 1 battalion of BT tanks (infantry support version), artillery regiment, engineer battalion, AAA battalion, AT battalion.

                              1939 GUSR Cavalry division 3x regiments or 3 squadrons of 4 troops. 1 troop each of each regiment's 4th squadron is BT tanks, AT guns and armored cars.

                              1939 GUSR infantry division 3x regiments of infantry, artillery regiment, horse drawn AT battalion, engineer battalion, horse cavalry troop.

                              My scenario had Germany invading Czechoslovakia and Poland at the same time. The panzer and supporting light and motorized divisions taking on Polish infantry and cavalry. It was mostly infantry assigned to deal with the Czechs, though in the south I'd probably put at least a couple of motorized/mechanized units to fend off any adventurism by the Czechs. More infantry plus the mountain division has to fend off the Italians and the French. Germany had a fear of a two front war, so how could they attack on 2 fronts and defend on 2 fronts?

                              The obvious answer is the Soviet Union, and that is what Poland and the Czechs fear. France and Italy are less concerned about communist shock troops than they are about subversives. In fact I think it highly likely that French communists would be raising hell in France tying her knots as she tried to both support her ally and appease a large political bloc. Given France's real historic timidity in 1939 and 40 combined with an almost full blown communist uprising France is unlikely to be able to attack Germany in support of her allies. Her expedition in real history is likely to be the same here. A token force plus maybe a few divisions to her allies.

                              The most aggressive western power is likely to be Italy. Yet even in an Alternate history, Mussolini comes up short, his army is poorly led and nothing can change that. Even though his tanks are not as inferior to the bulk of the German tanks as they would be against the new British Maltilda II in 1940, they are still markedly inferior. In Spain in real history the T-26 ripped German and Italian tanks apart.

                              However the ability to attack the Germans posses does not give them the ability to win. Even if Poland and Czechoslovakia fall full French mobilization combined with Italian forces created a strength of 87 divisions before the BEF which brings it to 97. Still more than half again the size of the German military. Plus the British have 3 more divisions forming and units en-route from the Dominions.

                              To invade France, the Germans have to have Soviet help. Stalin would send the troops, but the Red Army gutted by the purges and suffering from low morale after being embarrassed by Finland is also using junk equipment. Soviet tanks nearly identical to German models are much less impressive. The Soviet Union lacks the skilled technician classes of Germany so break down rates are higher for example. They use smaller less sophisticated trucks for transport, have major communications issues and coordination is poor thanks to the purges. They are also plagued by doctrinal failures though they don't know it yet. The tank brigades sent west with the T-28 will likely influence the choices Germany makes. The T-28 was designed to attack into fortified zones and so may convince the communists to make a frontal attack on the Maginot line.

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                              • #75
                                The small players like the Belgians and Dutch are somewhat Wildcards. The Belgians are officially neutral and despite claims to the contrary makde in this thread the UK and France will not force them to join them or else. Belgian status as a neutral is a result of the treaty ending the Napoleonic Wars and in 1939 is still force of law. However they don't need to force Belgium to join them. The small country remembers 1914 and can put 5 infantry and 2 mobile divisions worth of troops in the field. The Belgian Army expects 1914 all over again and is ready and Belgian staff officers are talking with their French and counter-parts.

                                The Dutch have a smaller army with a bit over 4 infantry and 1 mobile divisions in the country but the Dutch air force adds over 150 modern fighters, 14x the number of modern monoplane fighters Belgium has. Holland is also not part of the discussion taking place in Brussels, Paris and London. Everyone things the Dutch are soft, unprepared for war. After all the clog wearers avoid the blood letting of WWI. But this is a somewhat unfair sentiment. In real history the Dutch put up better resistance than the Belgians. Holland resisted for 6 days before the government the win the towel. In those 6 days the Dutch Army continued to fight and the Dutch air force continued to fly despite getting almost no outside help. This is a day longer than it took the Germans to break the Belgians, British and French in real history.

                                Belgium on the other hand using reserves and hastily raised units massed a force of 22 divisions in May 1940. There were slated to revive the support of multiple British and French divisions. Everyone expects a right hook like in 1914. And after the fall of Poland and Czechoslovakia the Germans do have a serious lead in mobile formations especially formations that are not ad hoc arrangements. Add in Soviet tank brigades and the implied threat is obvious.

                                It will also lead to the same mistakes by the allied leaders- a concentration to resist the right hook leaving the ardennes under defended. But here the Allies may catch a break. With T-28 assault tank brigades and maybe some rare and on paper terrifyingly effective KV-2 tanks the Soviets and Germans may go for a frontal assault on the Maginot Line rather than looking for a way to infiltrate tanks. This is made even more likely by the types of tanks being used. The German and Soviet T-26 tanks are limited to 10mph or about half the speed of the French Souma S-35. If the big Soviet tanks can break the Maginot Line, the roads behind them promise a faster and more direct advance.

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