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Communist German/Soviet Pact against Allies in 1939

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  • #46
    Ok ,so how about these guys,
    do they get purged ?

    Von Runstead Army group commander
    Von Leeb Army group commander
    Küchler Army, later army group commander
    Straus Army comander
    Hoepner tank army commader
    Kleist tank army commander
    Stulpnagel army commander
    Riechenau army commander
    Schobert army comander
    Weichs army commader
    J'ai en marre.

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    • #47
      If you can argue that a colonel,major and captain of the Reichswehr CANNOT be purged I'd gladly hear how many similar ranked officers of the Imperial Army were still active in the Red army of 1939?
      Those who know don't speak
      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Mihais View Post
        Look Z,you've got some imagination,you came with scenario.Comie Germany isn't going anywhere until they solve their class problme.Meaning a sort of civil war before commie victory,a considerable exile and a fe millions dead.after that you won't have ''real'' Germans and not much of a resemblance to the Reichswehr or the Wehrmacht.You'll have just another Red Army with German sounding names or very likely another Soviet Republic.Right now I remember Aleksandr Vasilevsky who served as a junior Lt. in the Russian Army.Zhukov,Rokossovsky and the rest of the bunch were privates or NCO's.Meaning that very few of the actual German officers of WW2 will :a)live b)live in Germany c) be accepted in the army.
        Czarist officers survived in the Red Army into the 1930's so it took some time to weed them out. The immediate targets will be Prussians and confirmed loyalists. Also the Germans prior to WWII tended to be more circumspect in how they dealt with the officer class. Unlike Russia where there was not a large class of industrialists, Germany has royalists, officers and industrialists and they will have to be broken or co-opted one at a time on the sly. This is what the Nazi's did.

        Now,if this nightmare would have happened,we'd see by early-mid 30's a few moves.First,everybody forgets anything about Germany as a bulwark against USSR(no Germany is part of USSR). France had ideological worries about USSR and nationalistic ones about Germany.That combines the 2.France in interwar era was relaxed because it felt powerful.It had Germany surounded by its eastern allies,it had the British navy and it felt they can prevent a repeat of 1914 thanks to monsieur Maginot.With all these,you can afford to have internal squabbles.But France did not lacked energy,bravery and skill when it had a challenge,as the Germans found out before and during ww1.You won't have neutrals.You'll have a Maginot line covering Belgian and Dutch borders.You won't have France ignoring the pleas of the eastern allies to give a helping with industrialization and you also won't have said allies so relaxed about USSR(they were a paria state and all Europe will come helping in case they come).You also won't have Italy affording diplomatic adventures in the East,meaning no revisionist Hungary or Bulgaria.
        Maybe, France was still exhausted by WWI and the bravery of WWI is why. France suffered horribly and the French (and British) society was not able to absorb those losses as phlegmatically as the Russians and Germans. An early communist victory in Germany also puts France's economic health in question if she isn't given time to repateri-rape things like coal and industrial output from Germany.

        So,while I agree that the world is toast if Germany and USSR jump on it in 1939 in the historical situation of the world,the events prior to this would have also altered the face of the world.
        I don't think the world is toast in 39, at least not automatically. In my scenario Zhukov was defeated in 38. He had to be or no Japan with the allies. Soviet forces are going to be lead by either by Timoshenko which poses huge problems for any offensive as he was less than competent on the attack or even worse Budyonny or Voroshilov.

        Soviet tanks for the most part are junk by 39. The T-26 has been passed up despite being the best tank of the panzer divisions in this alternate history. The T-28 is going to be the big gun of the communist armored forces and it is slow and vulnerable despite being designed to attack into fortified areas. Also the VVS is a poor addition to the Volksluftwaffe who despite the Mep-1-09 (me 109) lacks most of the other airframes of the WWII lutfwaffe and is instead using Soviet designs like the DB-3 for a medium bomber, Polikarov R-5 for light bombing and attack. Plus the Soviets are likely to limit GUSR volksluftwaffe size and numbers to a much smaller level.

        France may only have 5 battalions of high velocity 47mm armed tanks, but the Maltidla II and Cruisers A9-13 of the BEF have good guns (2pdr OQF) against the T-26 tanks which are a development of the Vickers 6 ton. The French also have armored car squadrons armed with 378 Panhard 178's with a high velocity 25mm gun.

        Germany doesn't pay its debts,but the English and the Americans also don't waste their money,thus an easier depression.
        maybe, the US depression was a nasty mix of gold standard troubles, war debt, housing bubble, stock speculation and automobile and radio market saturation.

        Britain and France start rearmament sooner and on larger scale.
        Again, maybe...

        And with some industrial muscle,Romania,Poland and Czechoslovakia can put between 100 and 150 divisions,better armed and trained than was the case historically.Turkey can also be brought into this by showing strength.Italian army and fleet can also join the fun.
        Maybe...

        In the North,no Swedish iron ore for Germany.No German skill to the extent shown in the invasion of Norway means there's a good chance Norway stays on the side of the good boys,resulting in a showdown between the RAF and VVS over the Baltic,but there's a good chance the RN,the French fleet and the RAF can win this one.
        +1 I like this part. But how bad will the lack of iron hurt the communist Germans? Will the Soviets use trains to ship Iron, troops or finished product?

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        • #49
          I have a question, actually two.

          1. How will Stalin solve the 1932-33 famine? Guess the Germans will share the same faith and share the burden.
          2. Will there be Great purge in 1938-39? If so will it occur only in USSR or in GUSR as well and to what extent? After they, are preparing for war, right?
          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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          • #50
            Over the cold dead bodies of the Poles,Romanians,Czechs and Slovaks.Iron like iron,but no oil supply means the soviet Germans have a few tries with maneuver warfare.Invading Poland without beating the Czechs first means inviting them in the right flank(and perhaps an Italo-French expeditionary force).Invading the Czechs first is a tough walk,leaving the bulk of the Polish and Romanian armies to face the Soviets in the east.It will take longer than 6 weeks,and the French might try an offensive if everybody pleads them to move.So the commie Germans might be taken out before the Soviet comrades can achieve anything of substance.
            Those who know don't speak
            He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Mihais View Post
              Over the cold dead bodies of the Poles,Romanians,Czechs and Slovaks.Iron like iron,but no oil supply means the soviet Germans have a few tries with maneuver warfare.Invading Poland without beating the Czechs first means inviting them in the right flank(and perhaps an Italo-French expeditionary force).Invading the Czechs first is a tough walk,leaving the bulk of the Polish and Romanian armies to face the Soviets in the east.It will take longer than 6 weeks,and the French might try an offensive if everybody pleads them to move.So the commie Germans might be taken out before the Soviet comrades can achieve anything of substance.
              See now your looking at the problems the communists face!

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                .It will take longer than 6 weeks,and the French might try an offensive if everybody pleads them to move.
                the Germans had their own Maginot line.
                J'ai en marre.

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                • #53
                  Z,they have problems only if the world prepares for war against them.Otherwise if the historical Germans and Soviets jump on the world...

                  1979,yes,they did.But it depends a lot on how many Germans are guarding it,what sort of Germans,whether it covers the Dutch and Belgian borders,how determined are these alternate scenario French etc...
                  Those who know don't speak
                  He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    during the polish campaign it had 36 divisions (30 along the french border ) if the services and supplies units are included it's roughly one million men, a number
                    which is unlikely to go down in this alternate timeline.

                    So how exactly do the french breach the Siegfried line in 1939 ?
                    J'ai en marre.

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                    • #55
                      They bypass it.Or they choose to reinforce the easterners by sending forces through Italy or by sea.
                      Those who know don't speak
                      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        they would be spent by the time they reach the German border ,
                        the belgian army was serious about neutrality before the war and matches the number of German divisions guarding the west wall.

                        as for expeditionary forces a few motorized units could be sent (a la Norway )
                        but not enough mass to effect the outcome.
                        J'ai en marre.

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                        • #57
                          If Germany turns red,there won't be neutrals.France and Britain will make sure Holland and Belgium join them,or else...
                          Those who know don't speak
                          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            they did not succeed when Germany turned brown, so why would they succeed now ?
                            J'ai en marre.

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                            • #59
                              the browns were considered a usefule buffer against the red.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                                If you can argue that a colonel,major and captain of the Reichswehr CANNOT be purged I'd gladly hear how many similar ranked officers of the Imperial Army were still active in the Red army of 1939?
                                1. different cultural traditions based on a different cultural foundation. In Germany there are three main pillars of the old order- the officers, the industrialists and the nobility. Even post WWI the prior members of the various royal and noble houses retained extensive social influence among large segments of the population. They need to be dealt with individually and with a circumspect hand. In Russia the only classes to contend with were the royals/nobility and officers. Yet even if the USSR they didn't move against both classes at the same time.

                                2. The German communists get a later start than Stalin, why do you expect them to move faster?

                                3. There is a much more organized right wing movement. Much like the reverse in Nazi Germany, move to openly and you risk civil war or move slow and force them under ground until their power is broken. However in the case of the Germans, if the communist moved openly the army and right wing would likely win.

                                But to answer your question directly. Kamenev was a czarist regimental commander. He died in 36 during the great purge. Ditto for Yegorov who died in 37, he was a czarist colonel. Tuchachevsky was a czarist officer we all know his fate in 1937... So former czarist officers survived in the USSR into the late 1930's. It took the USSR 20 years, why do you think Germany which faces a much tougher environment can do it in under 7?

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