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The Mess that is Indirect Fires Coordination in Afghanistan

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  • The Mess that is Indirect Fires Coordination in Afghanistan

    There is a pretty eye opening article in the latest Fires Bulletin regarding the complete and total mess that the Artillery community has found itself in in Afghanistan.

    http://sill-www.army.mil/firesbullet..._Mar-April.pdf

    Article begins on page 28 of the PDF.

    I really want to hear S2, AR and Gun Grapes opinion on this.

    Regards

    Arty
    "Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter-accusations".- Motto of the Gun Crew who have just done something incredibly stupid!!!!

  • #2
    A.E. Reply

    While the article's overt objective appears to lament the inability to effectively integrate with manuever the precision fire capability offered by the M777/Excalibur package, it REALLY opens Pandora's box to the devils bewitching the army and, perhaps, U.S. Marines.

    I can't recognize combat organizations any longer. At one time, depending upon a discussion about light, medium or heavy forces, I'd quote chapter and verse on what one might expect to find in any given sub-unit.

    Now? Who knows what's where and operated by whom for whatever why? We fell so in love with a modular concept around 1995-2005 that we lost sight of why we move, shoot and communicate...as an army.

    The fire support community tagged right along. I'm sure the brass was told to button their lips cooperate and graduate to rank and retirement.

    Well...are we surprised that we can't minimally cover manuever forces much less mass fires or mutually support? I remember a time guys would go to Hood or Sill, serve in a DIVARTY or CORPS ARTY, rotate to Korea or, even, W. Germany on a long tour, and return to the same relationships and, often, many of the same people.

    We spoke a common language and shared many common problems and solutions, even with our marine brothers. Sure doesn't seem like that's the case now.

    I blame it all on this FIRES sh!t. When the Field Artillery Journal went by the wayside all of us should have known we were in very, very deep kimchee.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

    Comment


    • #3
      S2 Reply

      I got a whole bunch to say on this topic but so fricken busy and beat right now not sure when i will get a chance. But bottom line you hit EXACTLY the right points in your post.

      Regards

      Arty
      "Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter-accusations".- Motto of the Gun Crew who have just done something incredibly stupid!!!!

      Comment


      • #4
        A.E Reply

        "I got a whole bunch to say on this topic but so fricken busy and beat right now not sure when i will get a chance."

        Cop-out. I'd rather read ALL you've got to say. You can take your time but you're a total wuss if you bail altogether.

        You'd better come through.

        I also really want to read A.R. on the force structure issues and it'd be great if Shek jumped in but he's A.W.O.L. these days. I really want to read Gun Grape because he's been down on the gun line but also up on the hill so he's seen both ends in MINUTE detail from the N.C.O. level and, likely, some of this before he left.

        Last, I'd love to read what DCL has to say. The good major's own artillery is likely facing force structure changes that'll come with the (false) promise of digitalization and precision-fires. Another perspective would be valuable.
        "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
        "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

        Comment


        • #5
          A.E. Reply

          "...bottom line you hit EXACTLY the right points in your post."

          Oh yeah...I forgot-

          JUNGLEERS! ON TIME, ON TARGET SIR!!
          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

          Comment


          • #6
            S2,

            Last, I'd love to read what DCL has to say. The good major's own artillery is likely facing force structure changes that'll come with the (false) promise of digitalization and precision-fires. Another perspective would be valuable.
            well well, i guess the RMA indoctrination machine didn't suck EVERYONE in, after all.
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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            • #7
              Originally posted by astralis View Post
              S2,



              well well, i guess the RMA indoctrination machine didn't suck EVERYONE in, after all.
              Not by lack of choice but at MoD's forever dragging its feet over the 155mm artillery gun acquisition program. Whatever problems you got are minor to what IA is facing. So there's some solace or food for thought.

              Comment


              • #8
                Okay guys…my $23 and 47 cents.

                Force Structure. The brigade combat team was and is a good idea. It allows for better allocation of resources on a permanent basis to the brigade commander. The idea of an artillery battalion organic as opposed to DS has a lot of merit to it; same as an organic support battalion. That said, the errors are in the execution of the plan. They got the artillery battalion wrong. It needs 3 firing batteries. 2 are not sufficient to handle the required fire support. And I believe the DIVARTY headquarters was no longer needed; but what was still needed was a robust fire planning and control cell within each of the division command posts. Looks like we lost those. And to the specifics of the article I have to ask why did some BCTs deploy without their artillery? I’d have hoped they Tora Bora would have solved that shit….evidently not. And why did they NOT deploy a fires brigade headquarters to do the C3I for the fire planning? Looks like we tried to let a little too much purple get in the way of our green.

                Maneuver. Okay, its sounds like maneuver commanders are not that enamored by the Excalibur. Okay, from reading the article there are a lot of complex factors required to successfully employ the weapon. I have to ask a couple of questions…did the same issues apply in Iraq? What about the employment of GMLRS? Are these the same issues? It sounds like some of these may be teething problems. Those of us who are greybeards may recall the problems we had regarding FASCAM when it first the force….we all wanted minefields on call forgetting that the steel rain on the bad guys heads would stop while the minefield would get seeded. Same with the last Wonder Weapon…COPPERHEAD. Remember how that worked out? And while the Excalibur is a great round is it a) the right munition for the terrain? and b) would a battery 3 of HE Quick delivered on target starting in 30 seconds better than a precision round in 90 seconds? That 60 extra seconds while I am cursing my buttons for keeping me off the ground while I am under fire is a lifetime.

                Fire Planning. The article goes into depth about the requirements for successful preplanned fires of the weapon system. Got it. But is the fire plan being integrated into the commander’s scheme of maneuver? Does it support the commander’s intent? It sounds like the FA community has failed to get its FSOs and FISTS trained properly to employ this weapon and have it integrate into the plan. Not supposed to work this way. If you make it difficult to work I am not going to use it.

                Doctrine. What kind of fight are we in? The article refers to the ability to rapidly get CAS on target. Okay, that leaves the gunners out of the fight sometimes. But if the guy in the direct fight can take out the hadji quicker with a Hellfire than an Excalibur guess which one I want to use? But it looks like some innovative cannon cockers are figuring out a way to get in the fight with the hot walls, etc. That is what TTPs are all about. Capturing the TTPs is what CALL is all about and I hope they are getting them and synthesizing them into training bulletins and getting them out to the force.

                This is not a tempest in teacup…nor is it End Days for field artillery. With the end of Cold War the artillery as a branch has taken quite a hit in structure because there was no longer going to be the fight between the Gods of War on the fields of Germany. FA was crucial to the success in the Gulf War. But as one Iraqi division commander said afterwards…”After 30 days of air strikes I had 90% of my division; after 3 days of artillery strikes I had 75% of my division; after 30 minutes of the 1st Armored Division I had none of my division.” Those fires shaped the maneuver battle, make no bones about that. I have watched with wonder how the FA branch has flexed to meet the mission. I believe it was in Field Artillery Journal in 2004 I read an article about how to reconfigure a DS 155 battery into an HMMWV mounted security force for use in urban clear and hold operations…and units were using it and doing it in Iraq.

                I see this as fire support is at a transitional moment….just like the BCTs. I think the Excalibur will fit into a wholly integrated fire support solution. The right sizing of the BCT fires battalion will help.
                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                Mark Twain

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  S2,



                  well well, i guess the RMA indoctrination machine didn't suck EVERYONE in, after all.
                  Astralis,

                  It was the RMA, not The Borg Collective!
                  “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                  Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Just saw this. Will respond in detail later.

                    Quick response is The more things change the more they stay the same.

                    As AR said. we've seen this before with Copperhead.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A.R. & GunGrape Reply

                      "...The right sizing of the BCT fires battalion will help."

                      That sizing is dictated by the number of major manuever elements in the brigade. There are parallels here to the 1943 Heer. With the reduction in infantry battalions at the division level, we saw the battery size of the German divisional artillery reduced in tubes

                      This was supposedly compensated by an increase in MMGs and 120mm mortars within the manuever battalions. Now? RSTA supposedly finds what once was the divisional cav squadron's responsibility. Why? Our brigades now fight semi-autonomous battles.

                      i'm concerned. A brute force mid to high intensity fight chews up people and resources. The potential opponents who matter for our ground forces- Russia, the PRC and the DPRK will put large numbers of EVERYTHING on the battlefield while also continuing the professionalization of their forces

                      Looming over all this is the fiscal issue. It's been there since DESERT STORM and the slide has been unerringly downward. We can delude ourselves with what's an optimal force structure and tactical/doctrinal solutions for Afghanistan but it's not remotely close to combat where sub-units can melt like ice on a Phoenix sidewalk in July.

                      "The more things change the more they stay the same."

                      Does that include combat? If so, then we'd best prepare for the kind of war where big armies battle in a winner-take-all losers get buried sweepstakes.

                      I want large manuever forces to the corps level supported with plenty of tubes.

                      Expensive? Yeah.

                      So is losing when it matters most. I don't know where. I don't know when. If "...the more things change the more they stay the same..." then we'd best expect to be challenged in a big way sometime in the future. A nation that can't field large numbers of well-equipped and competently-trained professional soldiers and marines will get what they deserve.
                      "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                      "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Want to bump this.

                        I read the whole magazine last month. I should calm down enough to give a coherent response soon.

                        But the first, of many things I find wrong with the article in question.

                        Who the hell thought that designing a weapon that requires a 10 digit grid for the target was a good idea?
                        Last edited by Gun Grape; 15 Jun 12,, 06:34.

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                        • #13
                          You guys speak a language that is foreign to me, but in my mind, I keep picturing Korea, where the "things that stay the same", are in fact still the same. They never changed.

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