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Real life what-if, Indian Army assault on Deigo Garcia

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  • #31
    I am still curious if this whole ideas was Russia's.

    I read the real reason that the Enterprise BG was sent was a show of force against the Soviets.

    Also, the Soviets were concerned that Diego Garcia was going to become a operating base for U.S. Submarines.

    There is a lot of reference to an unknown number of Soviet submarines in the IO.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      Buck, that's the point. We don't know. This is not some theory that we dream up. This op actually took place but called off at the last second.

      What I posted in the original piece is what we do actually do know. Our own WAB's Lemontree's father was part of an ambulance tasked to taking Deigo Garcia. He was on the tarmac before he got called back to barracks. And if the ambulance was on the tarmac, then the initial entry force had already left.

      What's been bugging me for years is what the hell was the Indian Army thinking to have a reasonable chance of success?


      Land the paras to divert the Big E from the coast of India-Pakistan (if she was helping Pakistan) to retake DG with marines, and hope the task force stumbles into the path of Indian DE subs lying in wait. Sacrifice a thousand or so men max for sinking a carrier... But someone probably pointed out that Yankee Station was not so far away that several more super carriers could not be on station in days, and until then a big honking force of B-52's experienced in breaking/jamming Soviet systems along with escorting F-4's was parked in Thailand, while a very hostile China was sitting to the North and a war with Pakistan to the East and West.

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      • #33
        Actually, now that makes a lot of sense. The objective was not Diego Garcia but the Big E.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          Buck, that's the point. We don't know. This is not some theory that we dream up. This op actually took place but called off at the last second.

          What I posted in the original piece is what we do actually do know. Our own WAB's Lemontree's father was part of an ambulance tasked to taking Deigo Garcia. He was on the tarmac before he got called back to barracks. And if the ambulance was on the tarmac, then the initial entry force had already left.

          What's been bugging me for years is what the hell was the Indian Army thinking to have a reasonable chance of success?


          Land the paras to divert the Big E from the coast of India-Pakistan (if she was helping Pakistan) to retake DG with marines, and hope the task force stumbles into the path of Indian DE subs lying in wait. Sacrifice a thousand or so men max for sinking a carrier... But someone probably pointed out that Yankee Station was not so far away that several more super carriers could not be on station in days, and until then a big honking force of B-52's experienced in breaking/jamming Soviet systems along with escorting F-4's was parked in Thailand, while a very hostile China was sitting to the North and a war with Pakistan to the East and West.

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          • #35
            I am sure InA knows that by either damaging the Enterprise or as zraver said sinking it could potentially result in USA entering the war alongside Pakistani why would they take such a risk when Soviet subs and Vessels has blocked entry of Enterprise in the Bay of Bengal ???

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            • #36
              Because they didn't.

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              • #37
                But Sir like you said they were prepared for such an attack and all of a sudden it was called off which means something must have happened in between which altered the mind of InA and back off.

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                • #38
                  The Bay of Bengal is in international waters. The Soviets have no right to deny American passage ... and no means of stopping them.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                    The Bay of Bengal is in international waters. The Soviets have no right to deny American passage ... and no means of stopping them.
                    Sir I am not sure if the following article indeed answers your question about stopping Enterprise entering BoB but I would still give it a go and as per the following source the USSR was successful in stopping USN. Please correct me If I am wrong

                    Soon the news of American carrier Enterprise and USS Tripoli's advancement towards Indian water came.

                    V. Kruglyakov “ I had obtained the order from the commander-in-chief not to allow the advancement of the American fleet to the military bases of India”

                    "We encircled them and aimed the missiles at the 'Enterprise'. We had blocked their way and didn't allow them to head anywhere, neither to Karachi, nor to Chittagong or Dhaka".

                    The Soviet ships had small range rockets (only upto 300 KM). Therefore, to hold the opponent under the range, commanders ran risks of going as near to the enemy as possible.

                    "The Chief Commander had ordered me to lift the submarines and bring them to the surface so that it can be pictured by the American spy satellites or can be seen by the American Navy!' It was done to demonstrate, that we had all the needed things in Indian Ocean, including the nuclear submarines. I had lifted them, and they recognized it. Then, we intercepted the American communication. The commander of the Carrier Battle Group was then the counter-admiral Dimon Gordon. He sent the report to the 7th American Fleet Commander: 'Sir, we are too late. There are Russian nuclear submarines here, and a big collection of battleships'.

                    Americans returned and couldn't do anything. Soviet Union had also threatened China that, if they ever opened a front against India on its border, they will receive a tough response from North.
                    Source: 1971 India Pakistan War: Role of Russia, China, America and Britain | The World Reporter: News Opinion and Analysis

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                    • #40
                      IMHO , When InA and USSR got information that USS Enterprise will be entering BoB, InA prepared itself to confront and divert USS Enterprise from entering BoB if incase USSR was unable to stop the advancing 7th fleet. BUT Since USSR Navy was Successful in stopping USS Enterprise from advancing InA called off the attack. The reason why I think InA had little hope if none like you mentioned before was InA hoped maybe with the help of Russian vessels it can strike the advancing fleet and stop if not slow down the advancing fleet and hoped to have forced the East Pakistani force to surrender ??

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                      • #41
                        Commander, in any potential confrontation between a small soviet surface force plus a submarine and a USN CBG it is pretty obvious who would end up floating in life boats. Of course, this doesn't mean that the soviet ships did not serve as a deterrent at all especially since it is not exactly clear how many ships they sent.

                        The very fact that the Indian armed forces contemplated suicidal missions like attacking Diego Garcia or a Kamikaze attack on the Enterprise means that they weren't exactly counting on the soviets to deter anyone. The reason neither of these missions were attempted was because the Enterprise never fired a shot. Whether it was because Nixon and Kissinger never had any intention of ordering it to or because they wanted to avoid any confrontation with the soviets we'll never know. Even if it was because of the soviets, the Americans will never accept it.

                        All said and done, it was fortunate for India that the war ended before the Americans got tired of watching their favorite genocidal dictator get whacked around.
                        Last edited by Firestorm; 20 Mar 12,, 00:17.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by commander View Post
                          Sir I am not sure if the following article indeed answers your question about stopping Enterprise entering BoB but I would still give it a go and as per the following source the USSR was successful in stopping USN. Please correct me If I am wrong


                          Source: 1971 India Pakistan War: Role of Russia, China, America and Britain | The World Reporter: News Opinion and Analysis
                          Your wrong, all of the US spy sats of the time used film ejection and were short orbit platforms. Begining with Bill Clinton and continuing today every sat launch of the era has been declassified.

                          1. and there were no US sats in orbit during the war
                          2. The sats flew pre-programmed missions so there was no way for the US to see surfaced Soviet subs even if there was a sat in orbit.
                          3. The Soviets knew what we had in space.
                          4. No other claims of real time reading American encrypted military communications exist for the time period.
                          5. The primary Soviet nuclear subs of the era were November SSN and Echo I SSGN subs. The first had no missiles, and the second had missiles with a 500km range.
                          6. None of the Soviet naval ships of the era had a 300km range missile.

                          Kruglyakov is boasting, but its a fishing story and is not true.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            Your wrong, all of the US spy sats of the time used film ejection and were short orbit platforms. Begining with Bill Clinton and continuing today every sat launch of the era has been declassified.

                            1. and there were no US sats in orbit during the war
                            2. The sats flew pre-programmed missions so there was no way for the US to see surfaced Soviet subs even if there was a sat in orbit.
                            3. The Soviets knew what we had in space.
                            4. No other claims of real time reading American encrypted military communications exist for the time period.
                            5. The primary Soviet nuclear subs of the era were November SSN and Echo I SSGN subs. The first had no missiles, and the second had missiles with a 500km range.
                            6. None of the Soviet naval ships of the era had a 300km range missile.

                            Kruglyakov is boasting, but its a fishing story and is not true.
                            If all of your statements are true , Why did Nixon did nothing if not little to help his ally in Pakistan ?? If Nixon could send the 7th fleet to the waters of BoB how was he reluctant in actually using the force in helping East Pakistani forces ? Maybe the initial intentions were to pressure India from four fronts but when India started to whack Pakistan's bottom what was Nixon doing with a huge fleet sitting around so close and doing nothing ??? This persuades me in thinking that Soviet has stopped the advancing USN and eventhough USSR had too little naval power to oppose the USN in the waters of BoB , in order to avoid confrontation with USSR Nixon must have ordered his men to stand down and watched Pakistan being divided into Pakistan and Bangladesh.

                            If you don't agree with my view please provide some strong reason as to why Nixon didn't help Pakistan it's ally when in deep trouble ???

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by commander View Post
                              If all of your statements are true , Why did Nixon did nothing if not little to help his ally in Pakistan ?? If Nixon could send the 7th fleet to the waters of BoB how was he reluctant in actually using the force in helping East Pakistani forces ? Maybe the initial intentions were to pressure India from four fronts but when India started to whack Pakistan's bottom what was Nixon doing with a huge fleet sitting around so close and doing nothing ??? This persuades me in thinking that Soviet has stopped the advancing USN and eventhough USSR had too little naval power to oppose the USN in the waters of BoB , in order to avoid confrontation with USSR Nixon must have ordered his men to stand down and watched Pakistan being divided into Pakistan and Bangladesh.

                              If you don't agree with my view please provide some strong reason as to why Nixon didn't help Pakistan it's ally when in deep trouble ???
                              All Nixon could do was bluff, there was a massive anti-war movement in the US, the county was still reeling from the troubles of a divided nation. When India didn't back down, she called his bluff and Pakistan was doomed.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                                All Nixon could do was bluff, there was a massive anti-war movement in the US, the county was still reeling from the troubles of a divided nation. When India didn't back down, she called his bluff and Pakistan was doomed.
                                Point taken. Still I don't understand the bold bit of your statement divided nation(?).

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