If Hitler had deployed the pocket battleships effectively as commerce raiders, would they have been more or less effective than the U-boats. Seems to me the U-boats were better from a benefit of cost effectiveness.
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Originally posted by Captain Worley View PostIf Hitler had deployed the pocket battleships effectively as commerce raiders, would they have been more or less effective than the U-boats. Seems to me the U-boats were better from a benefit of cost effectiveness.
If Germany had started the war with the U-boat numbers that Dönitz envisioned, and there hadn't been the high command interference, the Battle of the Atlantic would've been a very different affair.“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
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Originally posted by TopHatter View PostLikely correct, IMO. Surface warships represent huge investments in infrastructure (building and maintaining them) supplies (beans, bullets and bunker fuel) crew (hundreds) and vulnerabilities (limited to no ability to hide from air and surface attack).
If Germany had started the war with the U-boat numbers that Dönitz envisioned, and there hadn't been the high command interference, the Battle of the Atlantic would've been a very different affair.
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Originally posted by Captain Worley View PostPerfect example of fighting the last war.“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
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Originally posted by Captain Worley View PostIf Hitler had deployed the pocket battleships effectively as commerce raiders, would they have been more or less effective than the U-boats. Seems to me the U-boats were better from a benefit of cost effectiveness.
Unable to ever face the RN in a fleet action, the surface ships were hunted down one by one during their raiding missions and eliminated. The steel that went into them would have been better served in U-boats - but only the right sort - larger and ocean going.
Remember, the reason Admiral Raeder did his ship building program the way he did in the 30s was that after coming to power, Hitler stitched up what he thought was effectively a non-aggression treaty with Britain, and told Raeder that the upcoming war would be a long way off and be against the Soviet Union or France.
This is why the navy appeared as it did in 1939, with a limited number of ships and boats that were designed to operate defensively in either the Baltic or the North Sea, not a large ocean going fleet that would project power.
That the war broke out so quickly in 1939, and included Britain, traumatized Raeder.
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What if the Germans had started the war with all the surface ships that they wanted/planned to have?
The battle for the Atlantic would have been much different. No longer a DD/DE/CVE war.
Just look at the RN assets that were tied up keeping what few ships the Germans had bottled up.
US structure for both Lant and Pac would have been much different.
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Originally posted by vadupleix View PostDeck gun was important and sunk more vessels than tropedo in the early time, tropedos will always be so limited for a long cruise
Subs so configured could also have transited more or all of the bay of Biscay submerged. More subs in the Atlantic means more ships sunk.
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Originally posted by Gun Grape View PostWhat if the Germans had started the war with all the surface ships that they wanted/planned to have?
The battle for the Atlantic would have been much different. No longer a DD/DE/CVE war.
Just look at the RN assets that were tied up keeping what few ships the Germans had bottled up.
US structure for both Lant and Pac would have been much different.
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Originally posted by zraver View PostNot so sure, it depends how many are still afloat on Dec 7, 1941. A powerful German surface fleet when the Us enters the war changes things. A powerful German surface fleet that is sunk before the US enters the war has far less impact."Nature abhors a moron." - H.L. Mencken
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Hitler and the Kaiser weren't all that different about their capital ship fleet - both hesitated to risk it, though Hitler, unlike the Kaiser, wanted to scrape it after a while. I think the U-boats would have done a better jobs for them, had they spent those resources spent on capital ships on submarines instead.sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."
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Originally posted by zraver View PostIf Germany had abandoned the deck gun and railings and gone with a tear dropped shaped hull...
Type XXIII Elektro boats - U-boat Types - German U-boats of WWII - Kriegsmarine - uboat.net"There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge
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Originally posted by Stitch View PostEventually, they did, but it was too late in the War to make a difference; look at the Type XXIII. Basically, a "modern" submarine, but too late and too little to make a difference.
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