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  • #61
    Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
    On the original topis, Germany needed a big enough surface fleet to dominate the Baltic & project power into Norway - both foreseeable objectives in the 1930s. That is going to require a modern surface fleet that can pack some sort of punch. It will probably need a few heavy cruisers, but not many. Anything bigger is a genuine waste of resources. More U-boats is definately more useful.
    A large fleet long range E-boats may have been better than the large capital ships, and cheaper than the U-boats (probably not as effective as the U-boats, though).

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Captain Worley View Post
      A large fleet long range E-boats
      At that point you're approaching destroyer size and cost
      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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      • #63
        However a diversionary German naval sortie from Norway was
        completely destroyed and other sorties by MTBS and DDs
        inflicted losses on the shipping milling about in the
        Channel.
        :slap: curious how, in real life , both Adm Scheer and Adm Hipper broke into the Atlantic right under the British nose .
        J'ai en marre.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
          At that point you're approaching destroyer size and cost
          I guess you have a point, there.

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          • #65
            Uhm no offensise but the East coast of Scotland was in range from Norway and Scapa Flow was subjected to air attacks. An attack in March resulted in the HMS Norfolk (Country Class Heavy Cruiser) taking a bomb on the quarterdeck and being holed aft by a near miss. In fact from March to December HMS Norfolk is out of service.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
              At that point you're approaching destroyer size and cost
              And manpower requirements. German plans for Sealion were so consumed by inter-service rivalry not only did they lack life jackets for the second + waves, the barges lacked full crews. More normal e-boats from the beginning in the place of destroyers cruisers and raiders to challenge the British in the channel maybe, commerce raiding e-boats in addition to the other surface assets- NO.

              However as they proved, in the tight confines and close ranges of the channel they could do a lot of damage. Italian E-boats (German design or built with Italian crews) sank a British light cruiser.
              Last edited by zraver; 21 May 12,, 17:44.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                Uhm no offensise but the East coast of Scotland was in range from Norway and Scapa Flow was subjected to air attacks. An attack in March resulted in the HMS Norfolk (Country Class Heavy Cruiser) taking a bomb on the quarterdeck and being holed aft by a near miss. In fact from March to December HMS Norfolk is out of service.
                I do not know if this was directed at my previous post (were I listed Norfolk present at SF ) but :
                16 Mar 1940
                HMS Norfolk was damaged during German air attack on Scapa Flow. She was under repair until 14 June.
                Allied Warships of WWII - Heavy cruiser HMS Norfolk - uboat.net
                also:
                HMS Norfolk - RN warships of WW2
                Last edited by 1979; 21 May 12,, 17:55.
                J'ai en marre.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by 1979 View Post
                  I do not know if this was directed at my previous post (were I listed Norfolk present at SF ) but :
                  16 Mar 1940
                  HMS Norfolk was damaged during German air attack on Scapa Flow. She was under repair until 14 June.
                  Allied Warships of WWII - Heavy cruiser HMS Norfolk - uboat.net
                  also:
                  HMS Norfolk - RN warships of WW2
                  And there was sent to have radar fitted until December.

                  More importantly, if the Luftwaffe was actively hunting the RN, Scapa flow wasn't safe which is what the Staff exercise in 74 concluded when they pulled the big ships out.

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                  • #69
                    the 5th airfleet orbat is no longer impressive in September,

                    Luftflotte 5, German Air Force, 07.09.40

                    18 do-17 (10 operational )
                    20 he-111 (4 operational )

                    that is roughly one squadron of medium bombers + 17 he-115 float planes operational against scapa flow.
                    albeit i must admit I was wrong about fighters, the bf-110 fighter group has the range to escort them .

                    btw the radar fitting was in October:
                    http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chr...CA-Norfolk.htm
                    Last edited by 1979; 21 May 12,, 18:56.
                    J'ai en marre.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by 1979 View Post
                      :slap: curious how, in real life , both Adm Scheer and Adm Hipper broke into the Atlantic right under the British nose .
                      Only the ships under their name during WWII, at Jutland during WWI it was the other way around, the RN was already at sea before those two sortied with the High Seas Fleet.
                      Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by zraver View Post
                        And manpower requirements. German plans for Sealion were so consumed by inter-service rivalry not only did they lack life jackets for the second + waves, the barges lacked full crews. More normal e-boats from the beginning in the place of destroyers cruisers and raiders to challenge the British in the channel maybe, commerce raiding e-boats in addition to the other surface assets- NO.

                        However as they proved, in the tight confines and close ranges of the channel they could do a lot of damage. Italian E-boats (German design or built with Italian crews) sank a British light cruiser.
                        They also sank a few LST's as well is the days leading up to the Normandy landings.
                        Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                          They also sank a few LST's as well is the days leading up to the Normandy landings.
                          Including one out right disaster.

                          1979,

                          had the Luftwaffe and Km decided to take on the RN and end the city campaign, Luftflotte 5 could have been reenforced. I assume this is what the staff exercise assumed when they pulled the capitol ships out.

                          From July through Sept the RAF lost 481 fighter pilots KIA/MIA/POW and a further 422 wounded a good number of who would never fly again. The RAF also lost 601 Hurricanes and 357 Spitfires. This against Luftwaffe fighter pilot and Me 109 losses of 533 and me 109 and airframe and crew losses of 229 for the Me 110.

                          The 636 or so RAF fighters left vs the 600 or so Me 109's given the same loss rate 1.5+ to 1 means the RAF runs out of pilots and planes before the RAF. Though long term British production and training will make replacements far easier than the Luftwaffe who has a good reserve of pilots but not air frames.
                          Last edited by zraver; 22 May 12,, 00:46.

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                          • #73
                            Unimpressed with Luftwaffe's record against Royal Navy. The British evacuated their army not once but three times under LW attacks (Dunkirk, Norway, Greece) so what's gonna stop the Royal Navy from turning those barges to luncheon meat? Also, the KM had never won a major surface engagement against the RN. Running a few merchant raiders is not the same thing as an all out assault and KM's record even in that was an abysmal failure.
                            Last edited by Triple C; 22 May 12,, 00:54.
                            All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                            -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                              Unimpressed with Luftwaffe's record against Royal Navy. The British evacuated their army not once but three times under LW attacks (Dunkirk, Norway, Greece)
                              Dunkirk cost the British more than a fifth of their Home Fleet destroyer destroyer force (3 sunk 9 damaged) plus 3 French destroyers sunk. In Norway the Luftwaffe sank a cruiser at a minimum also lost [all causes] were a carrier and 7 destroyers. Those two operations alone for a time cut the RN destroyer force by a third. Add in the Norfolk and other losses in 1940 and the British navy is much weakened. Crete cost the British 4 cruisers and 6 destroyers and 7 ships damaged including 2 battleships and a cruiser. 1 cruiser was lost in march and 1 destroyer in late June but most of the damage was on 3 days 21, 22 and 23 May when the British lost 2 cruisers and 4 destroyers.

                              Other 1940 losses due to air, air dropped mine or gunfire attack

                              HMS Sussex (cruiser) sunk by air attack
                              HMS Wren sunk by air attack
                              HMS Havant sunk in the Western approaches in December
                              HMS Codrington sunk in Dover harbor in July
                              HMS Archeron sunk in December by air dropped mine
                              HMS Brazen sunk by air attack in July 1940
                              HMS Delight sunk by air attack in July 1940
                              HMS Esk [possible] sunk by mine August 1940
                              HMS Ivanhoe severely damaged by air attack in June, sunk by mine in Sept 1940
                              HMS Eskimo, lost her bow to gun fire in Norway
                              PNS Grom sunk by aircraft
                              HMS Inanda (armed boarding vessel) sunk by air attack in London Sept 1940
                              HMS Inkosi same as above
                              HMS Poulmic (armed trawler) sunk by air dropped mine
                              HMS Borealis (barrage ballon tender) sunk by aircraft
                              HMS Sea King (armed trawler sunk by air dropped mine)
                              HMS Girl Mary (patrol boat) sunk by air dropped mine)
                              HMS Aisha (armed yacht) sunk by air dropped mine
                              HMS Warwick Deepening (armed trawler) sunk by gunfire
                              HMS Resolvo armed trawler sunk by air dropped mine
                              HMS Danube IIII naval tug sunk by air dropped mine
                              HMS New Royal Sovereign (ferry) bombed and sunk in August
                              HMS Foylebank AA ship bombed and sunk in July
                              HMS Lord Stamp armed trawler sunk by air dropped mine....

                              The list of small armed vessel sunk by bombing, air dropped mines and gun fire goes on and on and on... 1940 saw the Luftwaffe beat the snot out of the RN through bombs and air dropped mines and the Royal Navy barely managed to give as good as it got in surface actions despite a massive edge in numbers. British losses in named armed ships HMT, HMY and HMS top 100 vessels

                              Total RN losses to other than submarine in 1940 were at least 1 carrier, 2 cruisers, 20 destroyers sunk and at least 11 others damaged plus dozens of smaller vessels... that is a beating and is more than the German's lost for the same period.

                              so what's gonna stop the Royal Navy from turning those barges to luncheon meat?
                              fear of the Luftwaffe and timing.


                              Also, the KM had never won a major surface engagement against the RN. Running a few merchant raiders is not the same thing as an all out assault and KM's record even in that was an abysmal failure.
                              HMS Glorious and her escorts were wiped out in a surface action, HMS Hood didn't do so well either....

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Another interesting topic and one I think I may start a new thread from re; an alternate “approach” to the problems facing the German Air Force and Navy during vis-a-ve Op Sea Lion. But back to topic.

                                I think the jury is pretty much in on the possibility of German using its capital fleet in the role of commerce raiders. In terms of tonnage sunk and resources required to Germany’s U-boat fleet were far and away more effective as commerce raiders. That said it has always seemed to me (speaking strictly as a novice) the Kriegesmarine never managed to actually use their prized assets to maximum possible effect. This may be because they were attempting to preserve a “fleet in being” for possible use later in the war but they must also have known that the British at least would spare no effort neutralise the threat they represented asap.

                                In any case once war was declared with Great Britain I think the Germans faced something of a “use it or lose it” situation as far as their capital ships were concerned. They could either keep them cooped up in the Baltic where they would never have the chance to be used to any good effect or risk them in the North Atlantic.

                                Given the above I have always been puzzled by the fact that the Germans never tried a “mass sortie” using all their capital ships in one force early in the war when they had the best chance of success. In that light .....
                                Following the completion of Operation Weserübung in early 1940 the Germans had secured their access to the North Sea and the Atlantic. They also had (and someone please correct me if I’m wrong following forces available for a sortie : 4BB’s plus 4x HC’s all of which were modern, fast, well armed and manned by superbly trained crews. (I discount the Graf Spee and Blucher, both of which were lost prior to the above date (the Blucher in especially “odd” circumstances for a major warship). As far as I can see the way was open to them to strike, especially since at this stage of the war Allied Air power was nowhere near the numbers or range required to cover the North Atlantic properly. It would take careful planning and preparation but it seems to me as a novice to have been doable.

                                The British on the other hand faced serious dilemmas. Firstly they had to assign capital ships to the Mediterranean and Far East theatres while also properly defending the Atlantic from German raiders. They then had to divide their remaining capital ships into three separate forces. One to cover the Greenland/ Iceland “gap”, one to cover the Iceland/Faroe Island “gap” and one to cover the Faroe Island/Orkneys. Furthermore all three gaps had to be covered at simultaneously and all three required ships on station 24/7 which meant the only reserve units would be those back at Scapa for replenishment. The Germans meanwhile could launch their sortie at the time they thought most advantageous.

                                As I see it there the Germans would be either intercepted on their “outwards” run or not. If they are they had the opportunity to inflict serious losses on the first British force they encountered, possibly even winning a complete victory. They would suffer losses themselves of course and any “cripples would “ have to run for home with few escorts since the Germans ability to provide such had been seriously depleted during Weserübung. Those forces that broke through then had the option of stricking at allied shipping and inflicting further serious losses on any convoys they encountered or just returning to port.

                                Alternately they might have broken “out” successfully and then had to fight their way back past the British on the return trip. (As long as they were quick and started home before the British could concentrate). Lastly the British might well have missed them on both legs and they all live to fight another day.

                                The down side to all of the above is that the Germans have to get “lucky” each time they sortie where as the British only have to get lucky once e.g. as they did with the torpedo hit on the Bsmark’s rudder. I figure the Germans could maybe have pulled off the above once, twice , maybe three times but each “run” raises the odds that at least one or two units in their capital fleet would be crippled or sunk and once the war started the Germans never found the resources to complete even one “new” capital ship to replace their losses. So in the end the above is really a formula for “loosing” theri fleet, either sunk or in dry dock very early in the war – say by the end of 1942.

                                The only thing I think it might have going for it is that the Germans could have caused the British far more significant losses with their battle fleet than they actually managed to do in reality. (As easy as it is for me sitting here now to suggest better ways for the crews involved to give up their lives.)

                                In any event I for one wouldn’t have wanted to be the British Admiral commanding one of the “gap” forces watching the Bismark, Tirpitz, Gneisenau, Sharnhorst, Lutzow, Scheer, Hipper and Prinz Eugen (or most of this list) bearing down on me in a massed squadron. It would certainly make my stiff upper lip quiver.

                                Thoughts anyone?
                                If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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