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  • #16
    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    That takes time, meanwhile credit dries up. The economy slows down to the point where it does not function. And this occurs across the EC, not just in Greece.

    Tell me which is the more pressing problem ?
    I can see that; it amounts to trying to stop another 'credit crunch', despite the fact that according to the EUs own bank assesments said that (nearly) all the banks were fine. You asked though if it was a 'cure' to the problem and this it evidently is NOT. It is treating the symptoms and not the causes; if it were the 'cure' there would be no further danger of a Greek default etc... The cause remains untreated so is this a cure? I shall let you answer that for yourself.

    Originally posted by kato View Post
    ... it would be rather awkward to have 12 times the current circulating currency of the Eurozone stored somewhere physically. Cuz that's how big M3 is. That would be a couple full warehouses stocked with 35,000 cubic meters in 500-Euro notes. This isn't 1913 after all.
    Indeed; for Greece and others it's the 1930s.

    The Latest Bailout etc

    First this is NOT a done deal; other eurozone countries have to agree this in their parliaments etc...

    Nor does even the EU itself believe the latest Greek bailout will work. "A "strictly confidential" 10-page debt sustainability report commissioned for yesterday's meeting of eurozone ministers concludes that the austerity measures being foisted on Greece as a quid pro quo for a second, €130bn bailout, are quite likely to prove self-defeating, in that the austerity, by further weakening the economy, may well cause the debt to GDP ratio to rise further." Eurozone's shocking prescription for Greece – Telegraph Blogs This 'strictly confidential' report suggests that the GDP to debt ratio will expand to 165-170% in 2020. Greece will also have pass a law the guarantees that creditors (banks etc) will be payed first, so private investment is highly unlikely as you are not a 'preferred creditor'. Basicly hardly any of this 130bn euros will go to Greece but will go to the Banks who own Greek debt. If this ECB cheap credit to the Banks had solved the bank balance sheet problem, as DE suggests, it seems insufficient to shield them from a Greek default. I heard Mr Barroso giving a press conference earlier at which he was asked "What makes you think a second Greek bailout will work after the first one failed?". His reply: "People learn."
    The irony... Even Mrs Merkel acknowledged recently that the first bailout hadn't been done correctly but now they have done almost exactly the same thing again, albeit with a write of about 107bn euros of debt making the real value of this deal about 240bn euros.

    Greece has lost the vestige of sovereignty in this deal also with the 'troika' having an 'enforced and permanent' presence in Athens. Perhaps this is the difference between bailout 1 and 2? It is unclear if the troika will have veto powers. The two main Greek political parties have also signed up to obey the EU commisars if they form the next Government. Greece has become the first EU colony and has lost any control of it's own finances. If the Colonel is correct that ''every society is a democracy,either by ballots or by bullets'' the EU has left only the latter option open for any European who doubts the wisdom of the course they are taking in Greece. As I have argued before this contradicts very principles of democracy that are required for a country to join the EU in the first place. By these principles Greece shoud be expelled from the EU as it no longer qualifies as a democracy. Even if this is salvation for the Greek economy (which apparently they don't believe themselves) it breaks the rules required to join the EU. Those, like myself, who are sufficiently cynical to see the whole European project as another version of the USSR where our lives are run in every detail by unelected 'benign' and 'politicaly correct' commissars will suggest that the EU now has Greece exactly where they want them; dependant and compliant to all orders from Brussels. I am being alarmist and cynical you will say... maybe perhaps you can tell me how Greeks can democraticly decide not to accept 'salvation'?

    Originally posted by mustavaris View Post
    The Greek are heading for protectorate status..
    This 'salvation' seals the deal. The EU has clearly decided the ballots are no longer reliable enough for them to keep their plan on schedule (remember what happened to Papandreou when he suggested a referendum?). This is a very dangerous decision and ultimately leaves 'bullet democracy' as the only option for opposition; effectively the EU has declared war on Greece. Alexis Tsipras, the Syriza leader, told the Greek parliament on Tuesday that his country was victim of a "terrorist" assault. Salvation they say... ku*wa!

    Last edited by snapper; 21 Feb 12,, 23:46.

    Comment


    • #17
      Snapper,

      I don't understand your frustration about Greek democracy. There was none. At least not on declared EU levels. Don't know where to start...
      The current PM is the first in decades who doesn't originate from 'royal' family (noone from his family was PM of Greece). Give them the fairest elections on Earth and they will vote the Royals again.

      They don't recognize minorities, except the Muslim one (wonder which country is domicile for that one, KSA maybe).

      The immigrants there are non existent. In the past they had several deportations of immigrants, without courts or other procedures.

      Their army members on parades sing songs how they will kill the neighboring nations (mine included, but not the only one).

      For their financial situation now it is everyone's fault, but their own. Nevermind they forged their books. The troika made them do it, too? Right.

      They asked for help and this is the help they gonna receive. They were offered to sell infrastructure, islands and other family silver, they refused. AFAIK, your or German railways are not state owned, nor the electricity distribution, nor the ports... but for the Greeks it was a big no, no.

      They fooled the creditors so many times in the past and shoud be greatfull anyone is still willing to help them one way or anoher.

      Finally they can always decline the help, file for bankruptcy or pay their debts. It is a matter of choice. They chose this way.

      I am sorry for the ordinary people who live there, but it is their responsibility for whom they voted, same as everywhere.

      Many posters on this forum said people in Iran or Iraq or DRK are responsible for their regimes, by the same account, the Greeks are more responsible for the current situation in their country. They had free elections in the past 40+ years.

      BTW what bullets for what opposition? Haven't heard any Greek politician with descent rating saying "if we come to power we will change the game, so be it"
      Last edited by Doktor; 21 Feb 12,, 23:53.
      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

      Comment


      • #18
        Another thought after that FMs meeting...

        Those greedy bloodsucking investors who decided to lend money to Greece lost 50-75% of their investments.

        Beats the argument on who benefits from this crisis.
        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

        Comment


        • #19
          The chair of the EU Parliament economic and monetary committee spoke here today. Most memorable quote:

          “When times are tough, you want to make sure that all of the tax that can be collected, is collected.”

          Make of it what you will.
          Trust me?
          I'm an economist!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Doktor View Post
            They don't recognize minorities, except the Muslim one (wonder which country is domicile for that one, KSA maybe).

            The immigrants there are non existent. In the past they had several deportations of immigrants, without courts or other procedures.

            Their army members on parades sing songs how they will kill the neighboring nations (mine included, but not the only one).
            Deary me... one wonders how they were ever let into the EU or why... The EU knew this stuff right? Presumably they did... I wonder why they let the Greeks in?

            [QUOTE=Doktor;862368]For their financial situation now it is everyone's fault, but their own. Nevermind they forged their books. The troika made them do it, too? Right.

            They asked for help and this is the help they gonna receive. They were offered to sell infrastructure, islands and other family silver, they refused. AFAIK, your or German railways are not state owned, nor the electricity distribution, nor the ports... but for the Greeks it was a big no, no.

            They fooled the creditors so many times in the past and shoud be greatfull anyone is still willing to help them one way or anoher.[QUOTE]

            Ok there are two points here, lets talk about the 'family silver' first. Basic fact is that they still supposed to sell this; the 'troika' expects them to make 50bn euros like this. Answer me this; who's going to buy it? Well no private investor from outside Greece is going to touch it. How it going to make a profit in the short to medium term? Maybe the Greeks will buy it? But they are broke. Realisticly the flight of money out of Greece is well under way and doubtless alot of Greek euros are currently under mattresses (I read one estimate of around 20bn euros on the 'mattress store'). It's not so much a matter a 'wont sell it' but 'can't sell it'. IF they do manage to sell such 'assets' they'd be lucky to get 5bn euros for the lot. So perhaps now is not the best time to sell them? "Where a paltry €1.6bn has been raised to date, €19bn is now meant to be raised from 35 transactions. But a government so palpably desperate cannot stage anything other than a fire sale. If you are an oligarch who fancies snapping up a Greek island, your moment may just have arrived." http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...debt-editorial

            On the fraud issue; of course the Greeks are guilty of this but do you realy suppose that EU and others did not know and collude in this? Here is an example of how it was done; BBC News - How Goldman Sachs helped mask Greece's debt Clearly the EU colluded in these frauds but now the Greeks are responsible for the whole lot? Why are there no heads rolling in Brussels? Why are there no criminal prosecutions? Of course the EUs commissars cannot be unelected since they were never elected and EUs budget itself has not been signed off by auditors for 18 yrs. Sure Greece was guilty but lots of countries were doing the same thing - all with the EUs collusion. Why is Greece alone paying for this? If you are looking for the real fraudsters here you should look in Brussels, whose elite survives only because collude in such practices; it they that benefit most.

            Originally posted by Doktor View Post
            Finally they can always decline the help, file for bankruptcy or pay their debts. It is a matter of choice. They chose this way.

            I am sorry for the ordinary people who live there, but it is their responsibility for whom they voted, same as everywhere.
            How can they decline the help? I remind you that there no legal mechanism by which a country can leave the euro. Once you are in that's it. They can't pay 14.5bn euros on March 20th. If they default they are literaly dead, they can't print more euros themselves to keep themselves going and nobody is going to lend them a penny, realisticly default means returns to the drachma but this can't be done legaly. Can't go on and can't go back...

            As for them voting in the Governments who landed them in this situation well partly you are correct but the successive Greek Governments who landed them in this mess, as I said above, colluded with the EU to create the problem. When Papandreou offered a straight democratic choice on accepting this 'help' he was quickly removed.

            Originally posted by Doktor View Post
            BTW what bullets for what opposition? Haven't heard any Greek politician with descent rating saying "if we come to power we will change the game, so be it"
            "This agreement is binding only on those who signed it. The accord carries the signature of a government with no popular legitimacy. It does not bind Greek democracy, or Greek society, or the Left. Very soon the sovereign people will regain their sovereignty," Alexis Tsipras, the Syriza leader, "If Europe keeps adding insult to injury, this is going to turn explosive," Dimitris Daskalopoulos, head of the Hellenic Federation of Enterprises.

            Look, lets try to explain very simply... The current plan sees Greek debt at 120.5% of GDP in 2020, despite the EUs own analysis which suggests that this cannot happen(for whole 'stictly confidential' document see: http://www.scribd.com/doc/82247382/G...ility-Proposal) . Commissars will be installed to ensure this. Ok... But 2 yrs ago (the first bailout) virtualy the same 'plan' predicted that Greek economy would slow 3% last year. This prediction, we now know, was over optimistic; the Greek economy declined by 6% last year and 7% in that last quarter. Now the Greek constitution has to has change to make sure that the creditors get payed first as well. In other words Greek tax payers will pay European bankers by law! Further cuts will be ensured by the commissars to make sure this happens.

            If you realy believe this is democratic, workable, fair or in Greeces interests then I give up on you. The only people that benefit are the bankers and the unelected commissars in Brussels who get to rule Greece despite their collusion in the frauds. This ends only one way from now on.
            Last edited by snapper; 22 Feb 12,, 06:48.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by snapper View Post
              How can they decline the help? I remind you that there no legal mechanism by which a country can leave the euro. Once you are in that's it. They can't pay 14.5bn euros on March 20th. If they default they are literaly dead, they can't print more euros themselves to keep themselves going and nobody is going to lend them a penny, realisticly default means returns to the drachma but this can't be done legaly. Can't go on and can't go back...
              And if they just say screw the EU, and start printing drachma again... the EU willl what? invade? kick them out of the UN? I highly doubt that. The most likely outcome is that they'll legistlate a way to legalize the whole process.

              I mean really, laws are not nearly as binding to nations as it is to individuals, and even in individual's cases it's not always done the way it is written (for example adultry is still theoretically a criminal offense in the USA, in some state it's even suppose to be a LIFE SENTENCE but obviously it hasn't been enforced in like a century.)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by RollingWave View Post
                but obviously it hasn't been enforced in like a century
                The last state conviction for adultery was less than five years ago, the last federal conviction (under UCMJ) even closer.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by RollingWave View Post
                  And if they just say screw the EU, and start printing drachma again... the EU willl what? invade? kick them out of the UN? I highly doubt that. The most likely outcome is that they'll legistlate a way to legalize the whole process.

                  I mean really, laws are not nearly as binding to nations as it is to individuals, and even in individual's cases it's not always done the way it is written (for example adultry is still theoretically a criminal offense in the USA, in some state it's even suppose to be a LIFE SENTENCE but obviously it hasn't been enforced in like a century.)
                  Well a return to the drachma would take some months of planning for starters. DeLaRue, who print over 150 national currencies, have said they could provide a new drachma print run 'within four weeks'. DeLaRue is based in London so presumably we would know first. Also they would need to stop people moving euros out of the country etc etc; "Although the initial official exchange rate might be, say, one new drachma to one euro, economists expect a rapid devaluation of the new currency of 50% or more.

                  As capital controls within Greece would be likely to restrict Greeks' ability to convert euros to new currency at the devalued rate, those who have already been stockpiling old euros under their mattresses would probably head for the border.

                  In this kind of situation, says Mark Crickett, governments are left doing things like "sealing borders… to try to prevent the movement of currency". "
                  BBC News - What if Greece had to get a new currency? where there is also a link to a podcast on the matter but here; BBC - Podcasts - Analysis

                  Is it doable? is the real question, and that is the one we realy have to look at. It wouldn't be nice that's for sure but hell they are hardly having a good time now nor likely to have one for some considerable time. According to the EU the Greek economy should contract "4.5% this year, stagnate in 2013 and then grow by 2% in 2014. But officials conceded that the Greek rescue programme is "accident-prone" and their forecasts are high-risk. Greece has been in recession for five years, losing 17% of its GDP." Greeks will suffer for five years as part of resolving eurozone crisis | World news | The Guardian Nobody realy believes these forecasts though.

                  The question, on a srtictly economic level, is which is the quickest way to make Greece 'viable' again? Arguably a return to the drachma would enable this sooner than austerity programme that has failed so far and is set to continue. Certainly democraticly a return to the drachma would regain economic freedom and choice at the ballot box. Arguably it could go quite well, as did Argentina when it defaulted in 2001-2 (Argentine economic crisis (1999). What the EUs response would be also is unknown except that they may face a run on other countries; Portugal, Italy etc... and so they would need a 'firewall' to prop up these countries.

                  It may happen though: "If we achieve a Left-dominated government, we will politely tell the Troika to leave the country, and we may need to discuss an orderly return to the Drachma" Syriza MP Theodoros Dritsas.

                  Of course it may all go disastrously wrong as the Polish Finance Minister, Jacek Rostowski warned in the European Parliament of war in Europe “in ten years” if the eurozone implodes as a result of the debt crisis.
                  Last edited by snapper; 22 Feb 12,, 08:32.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by snapper View Post
                    I can see that; it amounts to trying to stop another 'credit crunch', despite the fact that according to the EUs own bank assesments said that (nearly) all the banks were fine. You asked though if it was a 'cure' to the problem and this it evidently is NOT. It is treating the symptoms and not the causes; if it were the 'cure' there would be no further danger of a Greek default etc... The cause remains untreated so is this a cure? I shall let you answer that for yourself.
                    Cure would not be the right word to use here, i underlined the part where Fareed says it did not solve the mid to long term problems which presumably is what a cure would also entail. Clearly more work will be required to tackle those issues.

                    Implication being that the short term problems ie another credit crunch might have been averted. You see we've been talking about Greece so much that i did not even realise that the potential still existed for another credit crunch in the EU. Even you admit it but then the ECB would not be auctioning off a trillion euros next month in that case would they. ECB in comparison to the federal reserve or even the RBI is a central bank with a very narrow purpose, keep inflation under 2%. That's it, nothing more.

                    The question is whether others agree with this point. That some progress has been made. If this infusion solves the short term problems then thats the conclusion i would draw.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by snapper View Post
                      Greece has lost the vestige of sovereignty in this deal also with the 'troika' having an 'enforced and permanent' presence in Athens. Perhaps this is the difference between bailout 1 and 2? It is unclear if the troika will have veto powers. The two main Greek political parties have also signed up to obey the EU commisars if they form the next Government. Greece has become the first EU colony and has lost any control of it's own finances. If the Colonel is correct that ''every society is a democracy,either by ballots or by bullets'' the EU has left only the latter option open for any European who doubts the wisdom of the course they are taking in Greece. As I have argued before this contradicts very principles of democracy that are required for a country to join the EU in the first place. By these principles Greece shoud be expelled from the EU as it no longer qualifies as a democracy. Even if this is salvation for the Greek economy (which apparently they don't believe themselves) it breaks the rules required to join the EU. Those, like myself, who are sufficiently cynical to see the whole European project as another version of the USSR where our lives are run in every detail by unelected 'benign' and 'politicaly correct' commissars will suggest that the EU now has Greece exactly where they want them; dependant and compliant to all orders from Brussels. I am being alarmist and cynical you will say... maybe perhaps you can tell me how Greeks can democraticly decide not to accept 'salvation'?

                      This 'salvation' seals the deal. The EU has clearly decided the ballots are no longer reliable enough for them to keep their plan on schedule (remember what happened to Papandreou when he suggested a referendum?). This is a very dangerous decision and ultimately leaves 'bullet democracy' as the only option for opposition; effectively the EU has declared war on Greece. Alexis Tsipras, the Syriza leader, told the Greek parliament on Tuesday that his country was victim of a "terrorist" assault. Salvation they say... ku*wa!

                      What these actions tell me is that the Euro is more important than Greece.

                      Everything is being couched in terms that it would be in Greece's best interest and does not make sense. Therefore the real goal always was to protect the euro. To protect the others, Greece will be sacrificed, this is what 'People Learn' means
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 22 Feb 12,, 10:03.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                        I don't understand your frustration about Greek democracy. There was none. At least not on declared EU levels. Don't know where to start...
                        The current PM is the first in decades who doesn't originate from 'royal' family (noone from his family was PM of Greece). Give them the fairest elections on Earth and they will vote the Royals again.
                        Sounds a lot like developing countries where the candidates personality matters more than party position or ideaology.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by snapper View Post
                          Deary me... one wonders how they were ever let into the EU or why... The EU knew this stuff right? Presumably they did... I wonder why they let the Greeks in?
                          All the examples I wrote happened while they were in EU. Wonder how little Austria got suspended for voting a politician EU doesn't like, but all this happens in Greece and nothing happens.

                          Still doesn't answer my question "What Greek democracy you are talking about?"

                          Ok there are two points here, lets talk about the 'family silver' first. Basic fact is that they still supposed to sell this; the 'troika' expects them to make 50bn euros like this. Answer me this; who's going to buy it? Well no private investor from outside Greece is going to touch it. How it going to make a profit in the short to medium term? Maybe the Greeks will buy it? But they are broke. Realisticly the flight of money out of Greece is well under way and doubtless alot of Greek euros are currently under mattresses (I read one estimate of around 20bn euros on the 'mattress store'). It's not so much a matter a 'wont sell it' but 'can't sell it'. IF they do manage to sell such 'assets' they'd be lucky to get 5bn euros for the lot. So perhaps now is not the best time to sell them? "Where a paltry €1.6bn has been raised to date, €19bn is now meant to be raised from 35 transactions. But a government so palpably desperate cannot stage anything other than a fire sale. If you are an oligarch who fancies snapping up a Greek island, your moment may just have arrived." Eurozone's Greece deal: debt and delusions at dawn | Editorial | Comment is free | The Guardian
                          When the family silver came out as a topic, Greeks said "Hell, no!".
                          Then later they were "convinced" that's not as bad as it seems. There are buyers for the islands - Chinese, Russian, Greek, you name it, the thing is the demand is lower then the offer now.

                          Greek citizens are bankrupted, but at the same time they sneaked 200bn abroad, interesting. Also they have a numerous, rich, loud and chest thumping diaspora. Greeks don't wanna buy Greek property and companies? Why would you or anyone else?

                          On the fraud issue; of course the Greeks are guilty of this but do you realy suppose that EU and others did not know and collude in this? Here is an example of how it was done; BBC News - How Goldman Sachs helped mask Greece's debt Clearly the EU colluded in these frauds but now the Greeks are responsible for the whole lot? Why are there no heads rolling in Brussels? Why are there no criminal prosecutions? Of course the EUs commissars cannot be unelected since they were never elected and EUs budget itself has not been signed off by auditors for 18 yrs. Sure Greece was guilty but lots of countries were doing the same thing - all with the EUs collusion. Why is Greece alone paying for this? If you are looking for the real fraudsters here you should look in Brussels, whose elite survives only because collude in such practices; it they that benefit most.
                          The EU and the others just lost or about to loose their fair share and some more (50-75%).

                          Was there any criminal prosecution in Greece?

                          How can they decline the help? I remind you that there no legal mechanism by which a country can leave the euro. Once you are in that's it. They can't pay 14.5bn euros on March 20th. If they default they are literaly dead, they can't print more euros themselves to keep themselves going and nobody is going to lend them a penny, realisticly default means returns to the drachma but this can't be done legaly. Can't go on and can't go back...
                          Our poor Greek friends were so eager to get in and in this whole situation I see the Greeks as the winners of the whole situation.

                          As for them voting in the Governments who landed them in this situation well partly you are correct but the successive Greek Governments who landed them in this mess, as I said above, colluded with the EU to create the problem. When Papandreou offered a straight democratic choice on accepting this 'help' he was quickly removed.
                          He was removed by whom? Some secret black hand dragged him down from the PM chair?

                          What would happened if the referendum was negative for EU? Would that be a good solution for Greece? After all, George is not some kid who doesn't understand politics, he found a shortcut on a way out or finally Greek bluff was called.

                          "This agreement is binding only on those who signed it. The accord carries the signature of a government with no popular legitimacy. It does not bind Greek democracy, or Greek society, or the Left. Very soon the sovereign people will regain their sovereignty," Alexis Tsipras, the Syriza leader, "If Europe keeps adding insult to injury, this is going to turn explosive," Dimitris Daskalopoulos, head of the Hellenic Federation of Enterprises.
                          Care to translate me what he means? Hope he is not saying once their PM is out of the office anything he/she signed is void.

                          Look, lets try to explain very simply... The current plan sees Greek debt at 120.5% of GDP in 2020, despite the EUs own analysis which suggests that this cannot happen(for whole 'stictly confidential' document see: Greek Sustainability Proposal) . Commissars will be installed to ensure this. Ok... But 2 yrs ago (the first bailout) virtualy the same 'plan' predicted that Greek economy would slow 3% last year. This prediction, we now know, was over optimistic; the Greek economy declined by 6% last year and 7% in that last quarter. Now the Greek constitution has to has change to make sure that the creditors get payed first as well. In other words Greek tax payers will pay European bankers by law! Further cuts will be ensured by the commissars to make sure this happens.
                          What Commissars were installed in Greece 2 years ago? If you were to give them money what would you do? Forget democracy, politics and everything else. If you help them you lose, if you don't you lose same, what you gonna do? Let your friends bleed without helping them?

                          If you realy believe this is democratic, workable, fair or in Greeces interests then I give up on you. The only people that benefit are the bankers and the unelected commissars in Brussels who get to rule Greece despite their collusion in the frauds. This ends only one way from now on.
                          I don't think this is democratic, but Greece was no democracy in EU terms in the first place.

                          I also have issue believing bankers and Commissars won big time.

                          Which way this ends?
                          Last edited by Doktor; 22 Feb 12,, 11:21.
                          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                            Sounds a lot like developing countries where the candidates personality matters more than party position or ideaology.
                            Only we are talking developed country here. And India is blamed for casts system .
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                              You see we've been talking about Greece so much that i did not even realise that the potential still existed for another credit crunch in the EU. Even you admit it but then the ECB would not be auctioning off a trillion euros next month in that case would they. ECB in comparison to the federal reserve or even the RBI is a central bank with a very narrow purpose, keep inflation under 2%. That's it, nothing more.
                              Yep they have refinanced the banks somewhat although acording to S&P the banks are not passing it on "S&P points out that loans to eurozone residents shrank by 1.2pc year-on-year for the 12 months to the end of December, with Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Belgium among the countries showing a decline in loan growth." Apparently the ECB intends to repeat the exercise this month. See ECB's €800bn bank lending facility fails to boost credit to businesses - Telegraph

                              Has it prevented another credit crunch? Maybe helped a little and they are still working on it. Of course it is related to Greek, Portuguese and other issues in that the banks have to effectively calculate in to their 'assets' the lesser value of their holdings in the 'sub prime bond markets'.

                              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                              What these actions tell me is that the Euro is more important than Greece.

                              Everything is being couched in terms that it would be in Greece's best interest and does not make sense. Therefore the real goal always was to protect the euro. To protect the others, Greece will be sacrificed, this is what 'People Learn' means
                              Finaly we agree! It is not about what is best for Greece or about democracy but about keeping the political project (of which the euro is a manifestion) on track, that the super state and all it unelected commissars stay in power.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Doc...

                                "Still doesn't answer my question "What Greek democracy you are talking about?"" How about the referndum that never happened?

                                "There are buyers for the islands - Chinese, Russian, Greek, you name it, the thing is the demand is lower then the offer now." I am not sure that the Islands are for sale but seriously no Greek assets are going to sell for a reasonable price at present to Greeks or anyone.

                                "The EU and the others just lost or about to loose their fair share and some more (50-75%)." The 'haircut' is on the banks, not other Governments.

                                "He was removed by whom? Some secret black hand dragged him down from the PM chair?" Funny how he went just after suggesting a referndum. Who took over? "After leaving the Bank of Greece in 2002, Papademos became the Vice President to Wim Duisenberg (and then Jean-Claude Trichet) at the European Central Bank from 2002 to 2010" Wiki. Figure it for yourself...

                                "Care to translate me what he means? Hope he is not saying once their PM is out of the office anything he/she signed is void." Only the two main Parties signed up to this agreement. If they lose power are the new Government, who campaigned for a different policy bound by the pledge made by the previous Government? Seemingly if the electorate rejects the previous policy the new Government has a right to ignore something they never agreed to in the first place. This is why the EU have insisted that Greece change it's law so that creditors get payed back first. There has even been some suggestion that Greek elections should be 'postponed'.

                                "What Commissars were installed in Greece 2 years ago?" The troika. Now they will be permanently based in Greece of course.

                                Most obvoius way out is to let them return to the drachma.

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