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Rafale Wins MMRCA Bid

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  • Originally posted by Dazed View Post
    The F-18 has a service ceiling of over 50,000 feet, the Himalaya about 29,000 feet. I am no expert but I think the F-18 would do fine in the Himalayas.
    IIRC, the concern was regarding the F-18's take-off performance in hot-and-high conditions from some of the high-altitude airfields like Leh. Service ceiling has no bearing on that. Such conditions can severely degrade engine performance. Usually an aircraft with a high Thrust-to-weight ratio like an F-15, a Mig-29 or a Eurofighter would do well in hot-and-high conditions(the F-22 would blow everything else out of the park thanks to its humongously powerful engines). Neither the F-18 nor the Rafale is known for having a lot of excess engine thrust.

    All MRCA contenders had to undergo trials from Leh airfield (10,682 ft asl) in high temp conditions. The results weren't released, but media leaks suggested the F-18's performance in those conditions was outside acceptable parameters specified in the requirements. This is little more than hearsay though, so take it with a pinch of salt. No idea on how the Rafale fared.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 28 Sep 16,, 20:55.

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    • I don't think the F-16 or F-18 are actually in serious contention for India. They just bought 36 Rafales, and probably still want the other 90 that were originally planned for if they can get a good deal on them. Inviting Lockheed and Boeing to make their sales pitches is probably a move to get Dassault to play ball more than actual consideration.

      Unless the IAF really plans to take the sampler platter approach to their fighter inventory...

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      • Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
        I don't think the F-16 or F-18 are actually in serious contention for India. They just bought 36 Rafales, and probably still want the other 90 that were originally planned for if they can get a good deal on them. Inviting Lockheed and Boeing to make their sales pitches is probably a move to get Dassault to play ball more than actual consideration.
        I'm pretty sure the F-16 and F-18 were used in an atempt at leveraging a better deal with Dassault. I doubt it worked, tbh; everyone knows how desperate the IAF is. Otherwise why would they get into buying thse 36?

        Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
        Unless the IAF really plans to take the sampler platter approach to their fighter inventory...
        In which case they can also add the Grippen and the korean A-50...

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        • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
          In which case they can also add the Grippen and the korean A-50...
          Talk is the remainder might be Grippens as they're cheaper. The reason the figure is 36 is due to politics. Paying as much for the whole lot might get the administration in hot water by the opposition.

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          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            Talk is the remainder might be Grippens as they're cheaper. The reason the figure is 36 is due to politics. Paying as much for the whole lot might get the administration in hot water by the opposition.
            I was only joking. I very much doubt they'll buy the Grippen. The Tejas is in the same weight/size cathegory. By the time Sweden started building them the Tejas mk 2 will also start rolling out... assuming nothing more goes wrong.

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            • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
              I was only joking. I very much doubt they'll buy the Grippen. The Tejas is in the same weight/size cathegory. By the time Sweden started building them the Tejas mk 2 will also start rolling out... assuming nothing more goes wrong.
              aha, then i guess we'll order some more rafales when the funds become available.

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              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                aha, then i guess we'll order some more rafales when the funds become available.
                My guess is that they'll wait until they receive some of the Rafales and get a chance to show them off in exercises and airshows as well as let some generals talk them up before exercising the option on the additional 90. It never hurts to get some public buy in before throwing down that kind of money.

                It also give India a chance to see if Dassault can deliver the goods on time and at the agreed upon budget.

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                • Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
                  Unless the IAF really plans to take the sampler platter approach to their fighter inventory...
                  You mean even more of a sampler platter approach than it already does. Things are bad enough already. We have 3 squadrons each of the Mirage 2000 and the Mig 29, both of which are undergoing deep upgrades that will keep them flying for a while still. Several squadrons of Su-30's, Mig-27s, Jaguars and different varieties of Mig-21s. Oh, and add the Tejas to this now.

                  The MRCA was supposed to reduce the number of types by replacing some of these. Now, since we can afford only 36 Rafales (something they should have thought about before selecting the damned thing) it will only serve to expand the zoo even more. I don't think any country has a more fcuked up defense acquisition procedure.

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                  • Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                    You mean even more of a sampler platter approach than it already does.
                    I'm honestly surprised India hasn't just gone for a mix of Light + Heavy + Stealth. Scrapping the rest of the fleet to cut it down to a manageable number of types should let the IAF afford the remainders in large quantity and keep them upgraded regularly.

                    The Light fighter should be the Tejas 2/Navy to get HAL going, the Heavy could be additional updated Su-30MKIs if the IAF likes them or Rafales if they don't, and there would probably even be funds left to kickstart the Pak FA program!

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                    • Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                      IIRC, the concern was regarding the F-18's take-off performance in hot-and-high conditions from some of the high-altitude airfields like Leh. Service ceiling has no bearing on that. Such conditions can severely degrade engine performance. Usually an aircraft with a high Thrust-to-weight ratio like an F-15, a Mig-29 or a Eurofighter would do well in hot-and-high conditions(the F-22 would blow everything else out of the park thanks to its humongously powerful engines). Neither the F-18 nor the Rafale is known for having a lot of excess engine thrust.
                      What's interesting is that Boeing actually offered the F-18E/F to the Indian gov't with the newer General Electric F414 EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) with 26,000 lbs./116 kN of wet thrust, which is actually a lot more than the original P&W F100; but India would "not give the fighter credit for a more powerful engine offered by General Electric", even though that would've levelled the playing field significantly. I'm sure the Superbug would've done much better at altitude if it had had the F414 EPE's installed.

                      Engine Edge Did Not Help Boeing In Indian Fighter Bid
                      "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                      • Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
                        My guess is that they'll wait until they receive some of the Rafales and get a chance to show them off in exercises and airshows as well as let some generals talk them up before exercising the option on the additional 90. It never hurts to get some public buy in before throwing down that kind of money.
                        Very good, that's politics at play. When it comes to defense acquisitions there are always a million questions asked that take forever to answer then when decision time comes they drag their feet yet more.

                        It also give India a chance to see if Dassault can deliver the goods on time and at the agreed upon budget.
                        smart

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                        • Originally posted by Stitch View Post
                          What's interesting is that Boeing actually offered the F-18E/F to the Indian gov't with the newer General Electric F414 EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) with 26,000 lbs./116 kN of wet thrust, which is actually a lot more than the original P&W F100; but India would "not give the fighter credit for a more powerful engine offered by General Electric", even though that would've levelled the playing field significantly. I'm sure the Superbug would've done much better at altitude if it had had the F414 EPE's installed.

                          Engine Edge Did Not Help Boeing In Indian Fighter Bid
                          AFAIK, the EPE engine was still on paper when the trials happened. The IAF had to evaluate whatever aircraft were actually sent for the trials. And they did not have EPE engines. Come to think of it, is the EPE engine development complete even today?

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                          • If the types of jets in IAF are interesting... let me list the BVR's !

                            R-77 & R23
                            Derby/Derby ER (on LCA)
                            Mica (with Mirage Updates)
                            Meteor (with Rafale)
                            Astra 1 & 2(Indian BVR for SU-30)

                            And now potentially AIM 120...
                            Last edited by n21; 10 Oct 16,, 20:15.

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                            • And the list of air-ground must be... interesting...

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                              • By using a little bit of everything, India's military will never know which bits are in working order on any given day, thus India's enemies will never know what to prepare for!

                                /s

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