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Thread: Rafale Wins MMRCA Bid

  1. #736
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Till the time President Trump is in office, India can get a deal on the F-35, can't say what happens next.
    Why would it be different with another president ?

    Rationales for US to offer India F35 would still hold.

    Whether India is able to make F35 work for India is an entirely different question

    Doesn't going F35 mean we're are going to be increasingly constrained to buy American equipment thereafter ? due to this integration business.

    It would be limiting options in other words.

    If F35 can be made to plug into our existing system that is one thing but if we have to renovate the entire system just to accommodate F35 then that will be self-defeating.

  2. #737
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    ^ I see some objections if US & India wants to have a F-35 deal (Pak lobbying etc). President Trump is transactional, he will ramrod this deal through US Congress and the way he's been acting, he'll probably warn countries that lobby against this deal. Just my opinion.
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  3. #738
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    So the Qataris get their first batch of Rafales.

    First Rafale Handed Over to Qatar | AINOnline | Feb 13 2019

    This is the part that sticks out

    Qatari personnel will be trained at Base Aérienne 118 Mont-de-Marsan in southwestern France, Rochefort, and the Joint Intelligence Training Institute in Strasbourg. The first batch of pilots trained for Qatar in November 2017 were Pakistani exchange officers. Escadron de Chasse 04.030 was established at Mont-de-Marsan as the Qatar Rafale Squadron on Oct. 1, 2017.

    The Amir of Qatar, Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad al Thani, visited the Qatari Rafale Squadron at Mont-de-Marsan on July 6, 2018, accompanied by French defense minister Florence Parly.

    Under the SOUTEX program the Armee de l’Air is training 250 personnel who will man the first Qatari Rafale squadron. This unit will initially be commanded by a French officer until later this year when command will be transferred to a Qatari officer before the unit transfers to Qatar in the summer of 2020.
    Now, what does this mean for India ?

    Those pilots have an idea how a Rafale works. They won't be flying one against India anytime soon. But they will know its strengths and weaknesses better.

    Meteor is Meteor and has a longer stand off distance than AMRAAMs

  4. #739
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    ^ These things don't go unnoticed. Rafale for India has India specific modifications, and they have been bought primarily for strategic-weapons delivery role. We won't see next to nothing of Rafale against PAF/PLAAF and whatever little we might witness would be of its use in defending Indian air-space using BVR missiles. This is probably the reason why Doval and Modi bought only 36, while actual MRCA consisted of 126 aircrafts. As more and more days pass by, I see the IAF moving completely towards having an arsenal comprising of newer jets/helis/platforms from the US. With induction of US jets/helis/transports and platforms, IAF would be a force to reckon with in the future.
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  5. #740
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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  6. #741
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    I've reason to believe the French ambassador. This has all the makings of a another hit job from the 'Back Scuttle Rafale' gang

    There were concerns in the Indian military establishment after the report by the US-based website.
    Exactly, AINonline is based in 'Joisey'

    Who benefits from this news ? All other arms dealers but not France

    See! French can be trusted ?

    Well, to date five French presidents have attended the Republic day parade tells me they can.


    I see the IAF moving completely towards having an arsenal comprising of newer jets/helis/platforms from the US.
    That's what the US wants you to believe.

    This is not about Indo-Pak or BJP Congress

    This is about business and specifically US - France and US winning the contract from France.

    I'll go with whatever the IAF thinks best, as SME's they are the decision makers whose opinion matters here.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 11 Apr 19, at 15:47.

  7. #742
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I've reason to believe the French ambassador. This has all the makings of a another hit job from the 'Back Scuttle Rafale' gang

    Exactly, AINonline is based in 'Joisey'

    Who benefits from this news ? All other arms dealers but not France

    See! French can be trusted ?

    Well, to date five French presidents have attended the Republic day parade tells me they can.
    I don't believe the USGov or LM is behind this. USGov is winning deal after deal, there is no reason for them to do that. Since the rumour was about Pak pilots, I have a different opinion, which right now would seem a conspiracy theory, and so it's better not written about. Gfaust once said that the French bureaucracy is problematic and lethargic, in other words slow and inefficient and this is one of the reasons why they aren't in Five Eyes. They don't trust the French that much. Made me think of the Indian bureaucratic set-up.

    That's what the US wants you to believe.

    This is not about Indo-Pak or BJP Congress

    This is about business and specifically US - France and US winning the contract from France.

    I'll go with whatever the IAF thinks best, as SME's they are the decision makers whose opinion matters here.
    I agree there's competition. But I don't think US has any role here. This kind of news can be planted by anybody. This should be traced, and only then we'll know who the culprit is. Right now, you have the benefit of doubt.

    IAF wants American gear. Indian defence acquisitions for the last 15 years is proof that India is strategically embracing the US, while continuing an independent FP, without coming under any pressure from US or Russia or whatsoever. The only thing, which I think is why the IndianGov isn't ordering the 100+ F-16s/F-21s is India's FP. Once US sells us, it is our problem to use it wherever we see fit. Spares etc should not be halted/sanctioned even if we hit one of their allies. The experience from yesteryears haven't been very good. Which is why the Modi government wants to set-up an entire aircraft ecosystem in India. Business should be such, just business. As far as Russia is concerned, we're buying from them too. This is India's FP, it stresses on keeping every major power happy, while India gets its work done.
    Last edited by Oracle; 12 Apr 19, at 17:22.
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  8. #743
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    I don't believe the USGov or LM is behind this. USGov is winning deal after deal, there is no reason for them to do that. Since the rumour was about Pak pilots, I have a different opinion, which right now would seem a conspiracy theory, and so it's better not written about.
    AIN has been going since 1972. Conspiracy means its fake. Why would they say these things. I can't understand it : (

    Gfaust once said that the French bureaucracy is problematic and lethargic, in other words slow and inefficient and this is one of the reasons why they aren't in Five Eyes. They don't trust the French that much. Made me think of the Indian bureaucratic set-up.
    Underlined bit is what i thought when i was living in France too.

    I agree there's competition. But I don't think US has any role here. This kind of news can be planted by anybody. This should be traced, and only then we'll know who the culprit is. Right now, you have the benefit of doubt.
    Tracing is too hard. It's any and every arms dealer opposed to Rafale. These people manage to insert things here & there and even ghost write articles for others. What appears like a difference in opinion is just another competitors sales pitch.

    The only thing, which I think is why the IndianGov isn't ordering the 100+ F-16s/F-21s is India's FP.
    Question I have is will we buy more Rafales ? Should we and why ?

    IAF wants American gear. Indian defence acquisitions for the last 15 years is proof that India is strategically embracing the US, while continuing an independent FP, without coming under any pressure from US or Russia or whatsoever. Once US sells us, it is our problem to use it wherever we see fit. Spares etc should not be halted/sanctioned even if we hit one of their allies. The experience from yesteryears haven't been very good. Which is why the Modi government wants to set-up an entire aircraft ecosystem in India. Business should be such, just business. As far as Russia is concerned, we're buying from them too. This is India's FP, it stresses on keeping every major power happy, while India gets its work done.
    Abhi said Modi was returning to the first principles of non-alignment, just doing it better this time. Non-aligned means just that now. I find this an interesting way of putting it. Never would have thought non-aligned would apply with Modi but it appears that's exactly what he is doing.

    You will also find in what Abhi says the answer to why we voted against the Israelis a few months back and you were upset. The Israel - Pal relationship is de-hyphenated for us. Modi visited both countries separately
    Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Apr 19, at 03:40.

  9. #744
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Mig-21 killing an F-16 doesn't make it look good. I realise the "F-21" would be a very diferent beast than the Pakistani model, but I'm willing to bet some heads and PR people at Lockeed went "Fu$k!" when they heard of this...

  11. #746
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    Mig-21 killing an F-16 doesn't make it look good. I realise the "F-21" would be a very diferent beast than the Pakistani model, but I'm willing to bet some heads and PR people at Lockeed went "Fu$k!" when they heard of this...
    I think that sentiment would be louder at Rawalpindi. Their flagship plane brought down by an earlier generation fighter. Morale plummets.

    LM i think is less bothered about this incident. In the right hands maybe a F16 could take out a jet that was a generation better ?

    We lost a Mirage in early Feb. We lost another mig 21 to a bird strike in early March. Mere birds can take out million dollars worth of equipment, who knew. Paks have lost F16's to bird strike and in one case hitting a wild boar (!) Was it a flying boar. Oh the base commander must have had such a fit that day.

    Still the IAF had no qualms sending in a strike package of mirages to Balakote or sending up a Mig in a dogfight against generation better fighters. With the Mig21 having a reputation as a flying coffin.

    IAF chief said we use what we have.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Apr 19, at 01:20.

  12. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I think that sentiment would be louder at Rawalpindi. Their flagship plane brought down by an earlier generation fighter. Morale plummets.
    With voices behind: "Bet ya wish you had more JF-17s allready, don't you?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    LM i think is less bothered about this incident. In the right hands maybe a F16 could take out a jet that was a generation better ?
    Absolutely, specially at shorter ranges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    IAF chief said we use what we have.
    Pretty much...

  13. #748
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    Mig-21 killing an F-16 doesn't make it look good. I realise the "F-21" would be a very diferent beast than the Pakistani model, but I'm willing to bet some heads and PR people at Lockeed went "Fu$k!" when they heard of this...
    Why do you think the Mig-21B scored a kill against the F-16?
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  14. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Why do you think the Mig-21Bison scored a kill against the F-16?
    (small correction there)

    Because that's what every report is stating?

    Note that the Bison version is very diferent from the older models. It has a modern radar and helmet-mounted sights, firing AA-11 missiles. From the publicly available reports, it seems there was a multi-plane, multi model fight. I have no problem believing the -21 could have done this, in a large-scale dogfight. Maybe the F-16 pilot thought the other IAF fighters were more dangeous and dismissed it, maybe the -21 pilot simply dashed in and poped the missile withoug warning... without the kind of details the IAF and PAF will surely keep classified, who knows?

  15. #750
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    (small correction there)

    Because that's what every report is stating?

    Note that the Bison version is very diferent from the older models. It has a modern radar and helmet-mounted sights, firing AA-11 missiles. From the publicly available reports, it seems there was a multi-plane, multi model fight. I have no problem believing the -21 could have done this, in a large-scale dogfight. Maybe the F-16 pilot thought the other IAF fighters were more dangeous and dismissed it, maybe the -21 pilot simply dashed in and poped the missile withoug warning... without the kind of details the IAF and PAF will surely keep classified, who knows?
    B = Bison. And it happened, for the first time in its history, a Mig-21 shot an F-16 down. IAF is not the PAF or the PA or the PN to lie about such a thing.

    F-21 will give India 'significant edge' with greater standoff capability: Lockheed

    This is from today.
    Last edited by Oracle; 17 Apr 19, at 12:57.
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