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Thread: Rafale Wins MMRCA Bid

  1. #61
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    There is only one question that matters in this thread

    Did India make the right choice ?
    IMO, yes they did.

    French are sharing their technology and that is what is essential for India at the moment. Much needed for the development of the Kaveri and other Indian projects.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

  2. #62
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    There are two ways to find out

    - to win combats vs real enemy, or
    - noone to attack you while you have them in service
    Was thinking about the six day war and how good egyptian equipment was over that of Israel.

  3. #63
    Colonist Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post
    Then return all the monies and gold and stuff that you Brits have stolen from India during its 200 years of occupation. As far as I am concerned, you don't have a leg to stand on. Your empire was responsible for the impoverishment of India during its misrule. We had one of the highest living standards before the British Raj. It was only after the British left, the living standard began to improve for the better. As far as I am concerned, the aid is nothing but a repatriation for the riches that British has looted. And don't forget that India was the largest tax base for Britain during WWII and we paid in million of lives for it. Witness the Bengali famine. So take your holier than thou bullsh!t and park it up yours where the sun don't shine.
    My, don't we have a chip on our shoulder don't we. Nothing like an ungrateful recipient.
    Ego Numquam

  4. #64
    Military Professional Deltacamelately's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunder View Post
    Point still stands, irrespective of politics. I wonder whether or not a few peasants would be grateful of 1.2 Billion pounds in aid. Infact, since they don't need aid at all, why bother throwing government funds at development programs in poor regional areas at all. Same goes for any country. I suppose the poor that needed heating oil in the U.S couldn't really care if it came as a political stunt from Chavez or not! Myanmar flooding also springs to mind as a recent example of anti aid stance conviction that didn't really stand up well after a few weeks - just so long as the planes that landed didn't have 'USAF' on them.

    Clarified -

    Politics standing, WGAF what aid is given where, it's not to be seen as an inducement to buy stuff outside of agreements and shouldn't be seen as such or the dummy spat as such.
    Though Tronic and Blademaster have already pinned down your arguments, I would still like to it put this way -
    You really want to play holy, go ahead, just stop whining when we play realpolitic.
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  5. #65
    Military Professional Deltacamelately's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunder View Post
    My, don't we have a chip on our shoulder don't we. Nothing like an ungrateful recipient.
    You really are interested in postmortem of the 200 years of British Raj? Tell me, I will oblige.
    For starters, open your wardrobe and take the skeleton out.
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  6. #66
    Military Professional Deltacamelately's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunder View Post
    My, don't we have a chip on our shoulder don't we. Nothing like an ungrateful recipient.
    Your we in contrast to your Flag ring bells. Come out in the open.
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  7. #67
    Colonist Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    "...giving the city of Bhopal £118,000 to help fit its municipal buses and dustcarts with GPS satellite tracking systems. Bhopal’s buses got satellite tracking before most of Britain’s did."

    The peasants can finally catch their buses on time. Ofcourse they are grateful!
    Oh, you found one instance of <10% of aid being given. On top of that, you don't actually have any knowledge (probably like the rest of us) the way the aid is dolled out. Seriously kid, if you don't think pork happens, look at Murtha Intl.


    You lost the point. Indian government is merely stating that foreign aid is negligible compared to the anti-poverty programs funded by the Indian government, and therefore GoI does not require foreign aid because it makes an extremely small impact at the ground level, and does more damage to India's image abroad.
    1.2 Billion pounds is negligible? Hey, next time save the Children are out to get their 30 bucks a month off me, I should remember that my aid, (that goes to China) Is but a fraction of what their government spends on anti poverty programs, and thus, I shouldn't donate it. Hey, when you get out of your tree which seems monumentally tall with ignorance, you should perhaps tell all the other volunteer agencies that tell us that of your 1 billion odd people, a shitload of live in poverty - isn't helpful, and you would rather they spent it elsewhere. Thankfully, many NGO's, don't wait for government endorsement - it's little wonder why. You might as well have the same attitude as North Korea when it comes to aid!
    Those remarks made by the Indian finance minister were not made in retaliation to the British politician's rants against "ungrateful" Indians awarding the French despite the aid; rather, they were made last year in Parliament when the issue of foreign aid was brought up and why it was not being stopped. The reason was that the GoI had been trying to terminate the foreign aid but the British politicians didn't want to dent their chauvinistic image at home.
    You wouldn't actually think that there was more to aid than 'chauvinistic image', would you....?!



    India too blocked all foreign aid to its country after the 2004 Indian ocean tsunami. However, India not only provided aid to its own people (an initial $1 billion in reconstruction and gradually increased) but also to all the countries affected, aswell as launched one of the largest military relief operations in its history mobilizing its army, navy and airforce to assist in Sri Lanka, Indonesia and Maldives.
    What a crock of Crap. India did not, and never did block NGO operations. Along with the attitude of not wanting to accept extra help, just like (Japan & New Zealand) initially, Myanmar, Iran, North Korea.... Exemplifies a fanboi attitude towards disaster response - denying oneself of specialist disaster response teams as well as 10's of millions of dollars of water purification equipment and other vital assets.
    Hardly draws a comparison to Myanmar.
    Closer than you think, actually.

    British politicians surely didn't portray such after the deal was given to the French.
    Who cares about British politicians? Nobody. That doesn't mean you go knocking a gift horse in the mouth. You want an excavator? The hole is getting quite deep.

    That's the whole point.

    Can't call the Indian ministers arrogant when they are being shoved aid down their throats which they don't need and than demand favours in return.
    A favour in return is not a condition under which monies are leant other than that specified as what monies are accepted on behalf for. It isn't the whole point, it isn't even close to the point. When you let it sink in, you'll go an investigate for yourself how monies are lent and what they are lent for. I can call Indian ministers, the most arrogant SOB's (next to our own) on the planet. Your peasant doesn't give a damn where a dollar comes from. Top it all off you claim you don't need the aid!


    Yes, you think the finance minister was only talking about British aid? GoI wants all aid stopped.

    Read again,
    Oh my god. This article is not attributed to the finance minister select titbits and irrelevant factoids are trotted out to support a shit attitude.

    [B]"...foreign aid from all sources amounted to only 0.4 per cent of India’s gross domestic product. From its own resources, the Indian government has more than doubled spending on health and education since 2003.[b]
    You realise that says absolutely nothing, don't you. Yet it would be easy to so some simple reading.
    India - GDP - 2010 1.73 Trillion USD - World bank
    Thats $1 730 000 000 000
    Or, roughly, $4 350 000 000.00 (4.35 Billion Dollars)
    Wow, Foreign Aid only accounted for 0.4% of your domestic product.... Are you that pugnaciously arrogant.

    To put this into perspective for you, My Charity Save the Children last time I was told estimates it costs $30.00 a month to feed, cloth, vaccinate & educate a Child.

    In number terms, that is enough for 102 976 190 Children.

    Or in Words, One Hundred Two Million, Nine Hundred Seventy Six Thousand, One Hundred and Ninety Children.
    Last year, it announced a 17 per cent rise in spending on anti-poverty programmes. Though massive inequalities remain, India has achieved substantial reductions in poverty, from 60 per cent to 42 per cent of the population in the last thirty years."
    That is terrible.
    Population of India, 1,170,938,000
    Deduction, 491,793,690 Odd people are in Poverty.....
    Of which, foreign aid which contributes 'Only 0.4% of GDP' is enough to give opportunity to just over 1/5th of those in poverty. Now of course, aid gets divvied up into many things, but geez, are you guys ass holes to your own people or what!
    So yes, the point isn't only about British aid, but all foreign aid.
    Contemptible. Nothing short of it. I suppose you drive right on by an accident too, do you?

    And from the same article,

    "It [India] now gives out only slightly less in bilateral aid to other countries than it receives from Western donors."
    Perhaps it should spend it on itself then. If it doesn't want international aid, then perhaps it should put it's money where it's mouth is.

    Better to put that aid to use where its really needed. Places like,

    "Britain has reallocated its aid spending to focus on India at the expense of some far poorer countries, including the African state of Burundi, which is having its British bilateral aid stopped altogether from next year."
    Yep, and like the rest of the contemptible cherry picking to support what is pretty dastardly. Closure of a Bilateral office does not mean aid is stopping. DFID continues to support Burundi through a number of channels. So it was a nice little lie, like the rest of a contemptible article. Remember that tiff about aid being given under conditions...?!

    But I'm sure that seing as since the amount of people you have in poverty, is anywhere between 17-23 times the size of our own population.... Don't need any help at all, as 'you'll get around to them'.

    Last edited by Chunder; 08 Feb 12, at 09:18. Reason: formatting
    Ego Numquam

  8. #68
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Chunder,

    If that map is for people living under poverty line... it's damn wrong, I see my country at bellow 2% rate which by far is not the case.

    As for the billion of dollars, if they can't save India, few of those every year would help us a lot

    On a serious side, those aid agencies (at least here) spend more money for their workers (actually administrators) then for the mentioned help.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  9. #69
    Colonist Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    You really are interested in postmortem of the 200 years of British Raj? Tell me, I will oblige.
    For starters, open your wardrobe and take the skeleton out.
    As I've always maintained with deference to your position, I find it highly obnoxious the holding of a present government, responsible for actions of several generations before it. So you can go right ahead and do so, I won't care a bit. We don't hold the Turks, the Japanese, the Germans, the Boers etc with contempt.

    So you can rag on all about the British Raj, but when you look at the reality - the what is, there is not a British Raj any more, and India is a self governing country, responsible for her own affairs, and no amount of ragging on about the past is going to change that when nothing more can be done.
    Last edited by Chunder; 08 Feb 12, at 09:27.
    Ego Numquam

  10. #70
    Colonist Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Chunder,

    If that map is for people living under poverty line... it's damn wrong, I see my country at bellow 2% rate which by far is not the case.

    As for the billion of dollars, if they can't save India, few of those every year would help us a lot

    On a serious side, those aid agencies (at least here) spend more money for their workers (actually administrators) then for the mentioned help.
    Only an illustration towards an article full of dubious one liners.

    Edit, in fairness, it was the first image in google - so not much fact checking there - granted.
    Last edited by Chunder; 08 Feb 12, at 09:34.
    Ego Numquam

  11. #71
    Colonist Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    Your we in contrast to your Flag ring bells. Come out in the open.
    What has that got to do with the price of bread. As I have said, and have no problem stating again, Holding present generations responsible for something under which they had no effective control of (To the pugnacious point of turning away a helping hand, a gift horse) doesn't do you one bit of good. Nor earns any points. Just as bad as some expecting a contract in return for aid, it would seem.
    Ego Numquam

  12. #72
    Military Professional Deltacamelately's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunder View Post
    As I've always maintained with deference to your position, I find it highly obnoxious the holding of a present government, responsible for actions of several generations before it. So you can go right ahead and do so, I won't care a bit. We don't hold the Turks, the Japanese, the Germans, the Boers etc with contempt.

    So you can rag on all about the British Raj, but when you look at the reality - the what is, there is not a British Raj any more, and India is a self governing country, responsible for her own affairs, and no amount of ragging on about the past is going to change that when nothing more can be done.
    Chunder,

    I don't have any problem with the present day British. Nor do I have with their predecessors. Infact I and many in my generation laud innumerable goods that came my country's way, because of the British. So no rag there. My comment was in response to your rag, when you turned incohherent, claiming chips for your shoulder, for what the British did in my country. That's cheap, or do you claim to be British?
    Originally Posted by Blademaster

    Then return all the monies and gold and stuff that you Brits have stolen from India during its 200 years of occupation. As far as I am concerned, you don't have a leg to stand on. Your empire was responsible for the impoverishment of India during its misrule. We had one of the highest living standards before the British Raj. It was only after the British left, the living standard began to improve for the better. As far as I am concerned, the aid is nothing but a repatriation for the riches that British has looted. And don't forget that India was the largest tax base for Britain during WWII and we paid in million of lives for it. Witness the Bengali famine. So take your holier than thou bullsh!t and park it up yours where the sun don't shine.
    My, don't we have a chip on our shoulder don't we. Nothing like an ungrateful recipient.
    I don't have any qualms in anybody giving alms to poor. I have serious concerns when that comes with commercial expectations.
    To repeat - You really want to play holy, go ahead, just stop whining when we play realpolitic.
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  13. #73
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunder View Post
    Oh, you found one instance of <10% of aid being given. On top of that, you don't actually have any knowledge (probably like the rest of us) the way the aid is dolled out. Seriously kid, if you don't think pork happens, look at Murtha Intl.


    1.2 Billion pounds is negligible? Hey, next time save the Children are out to get their 30 bucks a month off me, I should remember that my aid, (that goes to China) Is but a fraction of what their government spends on anti poverty programs, and thus, I shouldn't donate it. Hey, when you get out of your tree which seems monumentally tall with ignorance, you should perhaps tell all the other volunteer agencies that tell us that of your 1 billion odd people, a shitload of live in poverty - isn't helpful, and you would rather they spent it elsewhere. Thankfully, many NGO's, don't wait for government endorsement - it's little wonder why. You might as well have the same attitude as North Korea when it comes to aid!

    There is a big difference in individuals donating willingly to NGOs and governments collecting their pissed off citizen's tax money and shipping it out in foreign aid.



    You wouldn't actually think that there was more to aid than 'chauvinistic image', would you....?!
    Not when the British politicians feed that crap to their pissed off electorate.


    What a crock of Crap. India did not, and never did block NGO operations. Along with the attitude of not wanting to accept extra help, just like (Japan & New Zealand) initially, Myanmar, Iran, North Korea.... Exemplifies a fanboi attitude towards disaster response - denying oneself of specialist disaster response teams as well as 10's of millions of dollars of water purification equipment and other vital assets.
    India never claimed to block NGO operations. When I say "foreign" aid, I mean foreign bilateral government aid. NGOs, as their name suggests, are non-governmental organizations and therefore free to operate, and millions of Indians donate to the same.


    Who cares about British politicians? Nobody. That doesn't mean you go knocking a gift horse in the mouth. You want an excavator? The hole is getting quite deep.
    We don't need a gift horse which comes amid so much British anger and frustration. They obviously can't afford it. Those who can, there are NGOs.


    A favour in return is not a condition under which monies are leant other than that specified as what monies are accepted on behalf for. It isn't the whole point, it isn't even close to the point. When you let it sink in, you'll go an investigate for yourself how monies are lent and what they are lent for. I can call Indian ministers, the most arrogant SOB's (next to our own) on the planet. Your peasant doesn't give a damn where a dollar comes from. Top it all off you claim you don't need the aid!
    Our peasants may not care where a dollar comes from, but these chaps surely do: Well that's gratitude! We give India £1bn in aid, THEY snub the UK and give France a £13bn jet contract

    We would rather look after our peasants ourselves than be coaxed in the pretext of aid.


    You realise that says absolutely nothing, don't you. Yet it would be easy to so some simple reading.
    India - GDP - 2010 1.73 Trillion USD - World bank
    Thats $1 730 000 000 000
    Or, roughly, $4 350 000 000.00 (4.35 Billion Dollars)
    Wow, Foreign Aid only accounted for 0.4% of your domestic product.... Are you that pugnaciously arrogant.

    To put this into perspective for you, My Charity Save the Children last time I was told estimates it costs $30.00 a month to feed, cloth, vaccinate & educate a Child.

    In number terms, that is enough for 102 976 190 Children.

    Or in Words, One Hundred Two Million, Nine Hundred Seventy Six Thousand, One Hundred and Ninety Children.
    For a month. Who covers the remaining 11?

    And than we also need the government to keep creating jobs for the poor; otherwise, cloth them, feed them, without a job, they are still on the streets. But yes, NGOs are great organizations, do really good work, and have improved the lives of many people. They've provided the ability to thousands if not millions of poor kids to compete with the rest of the middle class and become a part.

    But than, this is not about NGOs. It is about bilateral government aid, which has been scoffed at by people whose money the British government has been giving away in aid.


    That is terrible.
    Population of India, 1,170,938,000
    Deduction, 491,793,690 Odd people are in Poverty.....
    Of which, foreign aid which contributes 'Only 0.4% of GDP' is enough to give opportunity to just over 1/5th of those in poverty. Now of course, aid gets divvied up into many things, but geez, are you guys ass holes to your own people or what!
    Considering we brought more people out of poverty in 20 years than what the British did in 200 years of their rule; if we are assholes, we're a lot better than the assholes ruling the country 60 years ago.


    Perhaps it should spend it on itself then. If it doesn't want international aid, then perhaps it should put it's money where it's mouth is.
    India already spends billions on itself, far more than all the foreign aid combined; and than, we can choose to spend the money and extend this aid to our neighbours too (Nepal, Bhutan, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh). Who is anyone else to decide where India should spend its money? If one must play an holier than thou attitude, go play it with the Ethiopians, Rwandans or in Sub-Saharan Africa (where poverty levels are actually on the rise!). Ever wonder why governments are neglecting those areas? (Not NGOs, again).

    Yep, and like the rest of the contemptible cherry picking to support what is pretty dastardly. Closure of a Bilateral office does not mean aid is stopping. DFID continues to support Burundi through a number of channels. So it was a nice little lie, like the rest of a contemptible article. Remember that tiff about aid being given under conditions...?!

    I bet this article is another lie?
    UK criticised for lack of clarity on decision to cancel aid to Burundi | Global development | guardian.co.uk

    But I'm sure that seing as since the amount of people you have in poverty, is anywhere between 17-23 times the size of our own population.... Don't need any help at all, as 'you'll get around to them'.
    Considering that our middle class too is 10 times the size of your total population, we sure will. Just as we have been for the past few decades. The majority of those hundreds of millions of Indians were not brought out of poverty by foreign aid, but by other Indians. India's industrial sector, commercial sector, retail sector; these are the real reasons for the job creation and bringing people out of poverty, not foreign aid.
    Last edited by Tronic; 08 Feb 12, at 12:56.
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  14. #74
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    I, for one, very much hope thay the Indian Government does not have the opportunity to spend any more British aid (my money!) on French arms contracts. Lets face it whatever 'aid' gets sent get pocketed by people like the guy who doesn't want it.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I, for one, very much hope thay the Indian Government does not have the opportunity to spend any more British aid (my money!) on French arms contracts. Lets face it whatever 'aid' gets sent get pocketed by people like the guy who doesn't want it.
    They bought it with Indian money, your aid simply doesn't match the sum they spent. Besides, they bought UK weapons, too.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

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