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Thread: Rafale Wins MMRCA Bid

  1. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    What I don't agree or doubt is in bold. If tomorrow India goes on the offensive against Pak, and Pak lobs a few nukes towards Indian cities, then knowing that ABM shield works and can protect the civilian population makes India confident to progress into the conflict, assured of her military objectives. If a war is won over ghost cities, then that is no less than a defeat.
    True. But NASAMS does not provide any protection against Ballistic missiles.

    India doesn't have a trillion dollar of cash reserves. So, the first buys would concentrate on safeguarding military assets. Then comes protecting major centres of economic activity, which is metros like Delhi (also because the top decision making political brass sits there), Mumbai, Bangalore etc. Thereby saving the population too. Mind you, India's nuclear retaliation strategy also is counter-value.

    Again, are capabilities overlapping? Yes. But it is a gradual process. Now, does post #676 make sense?
    It is precisely because India has limited resources to spend on defence purchases (and more importantly defence R&D) that every acquisition needs to be carefully thought out. We do not have money to waste on systems like NASAMS when we already have equal or superior counterparts already available. Plus, there are a whole host of promising (and essential) local R&D programs which could have used this money. In the Air-defence sphere alone we have QR-SAM and Akash-NG under development that once ready will obviate need for further acquisitions of Spyder-MR not to mention several different radar and missile projects. MR-SAM is a JV with local production available anyway.

    And ofcourse, if we do have NASAMS protecting our cities in wartime, I hope we also have a backup to plug the gap in case we are hit by US sanctions. NASAMS is Norwegian only in name. Both the Sentinel radar and missiles (AMRAAM) are American in origin.

    Read here what can happen when you rely on American weapons: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

    F-16 CAPs could not have been flown all day long as spares support was limited under the prevailing US sanctions. Random CAPs were resorted to, with a noticeable drop in border violations only as long as the F-16s were on station. There were a few cases of F-16s and Mirage-2000s locking their adversaries with the on-board radars, but caution usually prevailed and no close encounters took place. After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether. That an impending war occupied the Air Staff’s minds was evident in the decision by the DCAS (Ops) for F-16 CAPs to be discontinued, unless IAF activity became unbearably provocative or threatening.

    Those not aware of the gravity of the F-16 operability problem under sanctions have complained of the PAF’s lack of cooperation.
    With CAATSA our planners are starting to understand what we are in for in the future. I hope the IAF draws the right lessons and avoids making the mistake of buying the F-16/18 or Gripen in the latest circus.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 03 Aug 18, at 21:10.

  2. #692
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    True. But NASAMS does not provide any protection against Ballistic missiles.
    It was a political decision, not military.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    It is precisely because India has limited resources to spend on defence purchases (and more importantly defence R&D) that every acquisition needs to be carefully thought out. We do not have money to waste on systems like NASAMS when we already have equal or superior counterparts already available. Plus, there are a whole host of promising (and essential) local R&D programs which could have used this money. In the Air-defence sphere alone we have QR-SAM and Akash-NG under development that once ready will obviate need for further acquisitions of Spyder-MR not to mention several different radar and missile projects. MR-SAM is a JV with local production available anyway.

    And ofcourse, if we do have NASAMS protecting our cities in wartime, I hope we also have a backup to plug the gap in case we are hit by US sanctions. NASAMS is Norwegian only in name. Both the Sentinel radar and missiles (AMRAAM) are American in origin.
    #1. NASAMS is an air defence weapon. I am not sure it needs spares and parts.
    #2. India has enough people in the establishment with cold war like mentality. I am pretty sure they'd have thought about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    Read here what can happen when you rely on American weapons: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

    With CAATSA our planners are starting to understand what we are in for in the future. I hope the IAF draws the right lessons and avoids making the mistake of buying the F-16/18 or Gripen in the latest circus.
    Comparing India, a secular democracy with a theocratic-islamic-terrorist hell-hole is bizarre. LMartin have been giving signals about shifting production lines to India for the F-16 for 3 years now. If that happens, Pak F-16s would be further squeezed, as the Indian MoD have made it clear, that LM can only sell it to countries not on India's blacklist.

    I understand very well what buying US weapons entails. We need to believe in our policy makers, now that we both aren't working for the administration. Some of us need to get out of this cold war mentality. We're being held captive, by actions of the past. And there are talks that US will be giving a waiver vis-a-vis CAATSA to India to buy the Russian S-400.
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    Oracle, the Americans are threatening sanctions merely because we want to buy a SAM system from Russia. Who exactly is suffering from a cold-war mentality here? Will we have to go through this rigmarole every time we try to do a deal with some country the fickle US administration has a problem with at that moment?

  4. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    Oracle, the Americans are threatening sanctions merely because we want to buy a SAM system from Russia. Who exactly is suffering from a cold-war mentality here? Will we have to go through this rigmarole every time we try to do a deal with some country the fickle US administration has a problem with at that moment?
    This threat is not explicitly for India. American sanctions are for every other country that does business with Russia, and that includes its NATO allies. During the previous administration India was given sanctions relief w.r.t buying oil from Iran, as the US understood we're a energy starved nation. India will get a CAATSA waiver for the S-400, wait for the news to come from official channels. ELSE, India should go ahead and buy it, national security trumps all. OR, Indian bureaucrats are incompetent to not make the US see our POV, and I don't think Indian bureaucrats are incompetent, particularly those that work for the PMO & the EAM.

    Both India and US suffer from cold war mentality. More so, in case of India, which in a way is right, but also childish. India has been given STA-1 status, which means in the days ahead a lot of high-tech American military stuff will be flowing to India. We should accept these with open arms, and use the offset clause to build an eco-system for make in India military builds.

    * I'm thinking 2040ish. China can have 200 submarines, but where we can't match the Chinese with numbers, we'd outmatch them with quality weapons. Savvy?
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  5. #695
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    This compliments this $1 Billion buy.
    STA-1 is actually more than that. NASAM is small compared to the 126 aircraft deal. Americans lost out to Rafale because of their own rules. For instance ITAR (international traffic in arms regulations) administered by the state dept. Then there is another set of rules called EAR (export administration rules) administered by the bureau of international security of their commerce dept. Both regulations mandated by Congress.

    STA-1 is so the Americans do not again lose out on a major arms deal with India. STA-1 is Americans finding workarounds around their own rules to sell stuff to otherwise qualifying countries so as to create domestic jobs.

    Listen to KP Nayar here

    Had posted a video some time back where Air Marshal Mathes pointed out the black listing of India dating back to the cold war that effectively prevents any meaningful arms sales as well as joint development until Congress gets around to removing us from that list. STA-1 if i understood correctly will enable that or can be seen as a first step

    We worked with the Russians to make Brahmos, who is to say India cannot in the future do a joint project with the Americans bigger than presently is the case.

    I never understood what the point of the Wasenaar agreement was but i think it was one of the later checks the Americans place before trading in sensitive tech. We're part of all the export control regimes that matter apart from the NSG.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 08 Aug 18, at 20:51.

  6. #696
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Back to planes again



    Lockheed Martin's F-16 pitch in India. Moving the production line here. Making F-16's for India as well as for export to others that use F-16's. Namely Central Asia & SE Asia.

    Know how to make parts for the F-16 means easier to learn to make parts for more advanced aircraft. Stepping stones to the F-35 later down the road
    Last edited by Double Edge; 25 Aug 18, at 01:01.

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    I'll believe the transfer of the SC F-16 production line when I see it.

  8. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skywatcher View Post
    I'll believe the transfer of the SC F-16 production line when I see it.
    You do know that, considering the lethargic defence acquisition process in India riddled by endemic corruption, you may never see it?
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  9. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    You do know that, considering the lethargic defence acquisition process in India riddled by endemic corruption, you may never see it?
    Or it takes so long the F-16 is by then completey obsolete...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    Or it takes so long the F-16 is by then completey obsolete...
    You're positive. And that's a bad sign for things to come.
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  11. #701
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    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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  12. #702
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    Boeing has delivered Apaches to the IAF?

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    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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  13. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Boeing has delivered Apaches to the IAF?
    Afaik, India originally bought 20+ for the air force... and then latter on bought more for the army. Not weird at all...

    Also, so much for "home built"...

  14. #704
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    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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    Boeing delivers first four Chinook helicopters for IAF

    How do 15 of these birds add any value? Maybe we'll get more in the coming years. Still, better something, rather than nothing.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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