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Thread: Rafale Wins MMRCA Bid

  1. #676
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    Its worse than that. India is already acquiring the Spyder and Barak-8 land based version (called MR-SAM in IAF). I have no idea what capability NASAMS will provide which is not covered by those two.

    S-400 is in a different category.
    SPYDER - Short for "Surface to Air Python & Derby" missiles. Two variants SPYDER - SR (Short Range) & SPYDER - MR (Medium Range). India bought 18 SPYDER - MRs (medium range), contract value $1 Billion, a total of 750 Python-5 SAMs & 750 Derby SAMs. Delivered to the IAF.

    Barak/Barak 1 - Ship borne SAMs. Active on Indian warships (stealth frigates) & Aircraft Carriers Viraat (decommissioned) and Vikramaditya.

    Barak 8 - Based on Barak 1. Two variants - MRSAM & LRSAM, another LRSAM (Barak 8ER) is in development. IA has ordered 5 regiments of the MRSAM (200 missiles). LRSAM is for the IN.

    Barak 8 is rumoured to have capabilities to destory incoming ballistic missiles apart from the usual stuff.

    All the above and S-400 are to protect "military assets and destroy hostile aircraft/drones/cruise missies" in times of conflict.

    NASAMS-II is to protect politicians ass, whoever sits in Delhi as of now. The ABM shield DRDO is developing has the same purpose. The bonus is, common Delhiites ass gets saved too. Next city on the list is Metropolis Mumbai.
    Last edited by Oracle; 01 Aug 18, at 19:25.
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  2. #677
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    The Chinese have a lot of missiles, if things go south on the border they will throw a lot at us. This is where those systems will help.
    ABM or those systems as you mentioned are not 100% effective. For effective deterrence, India should match Chinese cruise/ballistic missiles by numbers. Since this is not possible as of now, we're putting money on ABMs and those Israeli systems. Confusion is the name of the game. If you read Pak newsprints, from time to time abduls on the payroll of GHQ ghazis purrrr that India is destroying the military balance in South-Asia by building an ABM shield. What confuses people, scares people.
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  3. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    SPYDER - Short for "Surface to Air Python & Derby" missiles. Two variants SPYDER - SR (Short Range) & SPYDER - MR (Medium Range). India bought 18 SPYDER - MRs (medium range), contract value $1 Billion, a total of 750 Python-5 SAMs & 750 Derby SAMs. Delivered to the IAF.

    Barak/Barak 1 - Ship borne SAMs. Active on Indian warships (stealth frigates) & Aircraft Carriers Viraat (decommissioned) and Vikramaditya.

    Barak 8 - Based on Barak 1. Two variants - MRSAM & LRSAM, another LRSAM (Barak 8ER) is in development. IA has ordered 5 regiments of the MRSAM (200 missiles). LRSAM is for the IN.

    Barak 8 is rumoured to have capabilities to destory incoming ballistic missiles apart from the usual stuff.

    All the above and S-400 are to protect "military assets and destroy hostile aircraft/drones/cruise missies" in times of conflict.

    NASAMS-II is to protect politicians ass, whoever sits in Delhi as of now. The ABM shield DRDO is developing has the same purpose. The bonus is, common Delhiites ass gets saved too. Next city on the list is Metropolis Mumbai.
    We are going in circles. My whole point was that Spyder-MR and MR-SAM could protect the politicians' ass from aircraft and cruise missiles just as well as NASAMS (that is the ones that get past all the IAF fighters that would scrambled to intercept them before they reach Delhi in the first place). There was nothing stopping India from getting more of those systems and deploying around Delhi and nothing special technically about NASAMS. None of the three systems will protect them from ballistic missiles. S-400 can provide some protection, if we get the 48N6 and 40N6 missiles.

    NASAMS seems to ahve been chosen purely for political purposes or CAATSA related arm-twisting by the US.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 01 Aug 18, at 20:12.

  4. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    We are going in circles. My whole point was that Spyder-MR and MR-SAM could protect the politicians' ass from aircraft and cruise missiles just as well as NASAMS (that is the ones that get past all the IAF fighters that would scrambled to intercept them before they reach Delhi in the first place). There was nothing stopping India from getting more of those systems and deploying around Delhi and nothing special technically about NASAMS. None of the three systems will protect them from ballistic missiles. S-400 can provide some protection, if we get the 48N6 and 40N6 missiles.

    NASAMS seems to ahve been chosen purely for political purposes or CAATSA related arm-twisting by the US.
    The systems are for different uses.

    During a war, Barak 8 fitted in warships would be miles away in the sea. Their primary objective would be to defend naval assets. As for the Army version, they would be used to shoot down enemy combat jets/drone/cruise missiles etc which would attempt to overwhelm our defence capabilities at the borders just when conflict erupts. These buys are purely military in nature. S-400 is meant primarily for the Indo-China border.

    The other is civilian. NASAMS II would secure the civilian population from aerial as well as enemy CM threats. The ABM shield developed by DRDO is for the same purpose, just that it would shoot down enemy BMs too. These are threats that SPYDER and other systems alike cannot neutralize due to range.
    Last edited by Oracle; 01 Aug 18, at 21:08.
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  5. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    The systems are for different uses.

    During a war, Barak 8 fitted in warships would be miles away in the sea. Their primary objective would be to defend naval assets.
    Don't know why you're bringing Naval Barak into the discussion.

    As for the Army version, they would be used to shoot down enemy combat jets/drone/cruise missiles etc which would attempt to overwhelm our defence capabilities at the borders just when conflict erupts. These buys are purely military in nature. S-400 is meant primarily for the Indo-China border.

    The other is civilian. NASAMS II would secure the civilian population from aerial as well as enemy CM threats.
    The job of a SAM system is to shoot down hostile targets entering its protection bubble. What difference does it make whether the area protected is occupied by military or civilian installations? All that maters when comparing SAMs is the capability of its radar and missiles (detection range, minimum and maximum engagement range, no. of simultaneous targets, type of radar - AESA or mechanically scanned, whether the missiles have an active seeker etc.). In that respect NASAMS has no special capability that SPyder-MR and MR-SAM lack. If there is, please let me know. I'm always open to learn.

    The ABM shield developed by DRDO is for the same purpose, just that it would shoot down enemy BMs too. These are threats that SPYDER and other systems alike cannot neutralize due to range.
    Where did I say that the DRDO ABM and other systems had any overlap? Range is not the only limitation btw, the speed of the target matters as well (much higher when dealing with BMs).

  6. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    Don't know why you're bringing Naval Barak into the discussion.

    The job of a SAM system is to shoot down hostile targets entering its protection bubble. What difference does it make whether the area protected is occupied by military or civilian installations? All that maters when comparing SAMs is the capability of its radar and missiles (detection range, minimum and maximum engagement range, no. of simultaneous targets, type of radar - AESA or mechanically scanned, whether the missiles have an active seeker etc.). In that respect NASAMS has no special capability that SPyder-MR and MR-SAM lack. If there is, please let me know. I'm always open to learn.

    Where did I say that the DRDO ABM and other systems had any overlap? Range is not the only limitation btw, the speed of the target matters as well (much higher when dealing with BMs).
    What I'm saying is the uses are twofold. While one is purely military, the other is to protect civilian centres. Which in a way is right, when you say that military SAMs would take care of aerial threats before they ingress upto say Delhi, when NASAMS II etc would shoot them down. That is, capabilities overlap.
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  7. #682
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    ABM or those systems as you mentioned are not 100% effective. For effective deterrence, India should match Chinese cruise/ballistic missiles by numbers. Since this is not possible as of now, we're putting money on ABMs and those Israeli systems. Confusion is the name of the game. If you read Pak newsprints, from time to time abduls on the payroll of GHQ ghazis purrrr that India is destroying the military balance in South-Asia by building an ABM shield. What confuses people, scares people.
    This is why Doval in a talk in 2010 said India needed to raise missile regiments. I've not heard any progress on that so far.

    Spyder, Barak & S-400 can protect military assets until then
    Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Aug 18, at 09:45.

  8. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    This is why Doval in a talk in 2010 said India needed to raise missile regiments.
    Have not seen that video. Please post it here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I've not heard any progress on that so far.

    Spyder, Barak & S-400 can protect military assets until then
    You won't. These are not for public consumption. My guess is funds are being diverted into raising those regiments secretly.
    Last edited by Oracle; 02 Aug 18, at 15:52.
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  9. #684
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Have not seen that video. Please post it here.
    From 2010







    I find the chrome extension Ears, Bass boost helps to increase audio volume to an intelligible level in some of these clips. There is also an android app called Volume Booster Gooddev that works well for boosting low volume talks with the youtube app

    You won't. These are not for public consumption. My guess is funds are being diverted into raising those regiments secretly.
    I don't see why they would be kept secret. If we've heard nothing it means we've yet to begin if at all.

  10. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I don't see why they would be kept secret. If we've heard nothing it means we've yet to begin if at all.
    Even people from the US administration knows very little, or none at all. I don't see any reason why common citizens need to know matters pertaining to National Security.

    India Is Building a Top-Secret Nuclear City to Produce Thermonuclear Weapons, Experts Say

    US' NSA Knew About India's Secret Missile Projects: Edward Snowden's Documents
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  11. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    What I'm saying is the uses are twofold. While one is purely military, the other is to protect civilian centres. Which in a way is right, when you say that military SAMs would take care of aerial threats before they ingress upto say Delhi, when NASAMS II etc would shoot them down. That is, capabilities overlap.
    That is not what I was saying. I meant that the distinction you are making between Barak-8 and NASAMS as "military SAMs" and "civilian SAMs" does not make sense. Nothing is stopping you from deploying Spyder-MR or Barak-8 to defend a city. There is no capability shortfall vis a vis the NASAMS. That is why I suspect political considerations in this purchase.

    If you've been watching recent IA and IAF procurements of air-defense systems and local AD radar and SAM programs it was clear that we were moving towards a layered AD consisting of Spyder-MR (and DRDO QR-SAM currently in development), Akash (followed by Akash-NG with active seeker) and MR-SAM (followed by an extended range version in development) and DRDO ABM system for defense against ballistic missiles. When S-400 purchase was announced, it made sense since it provided some special long-range capabilities not available in other systems that we have along with limited ABM capability. NASAMS came out of nowhere, suddenly and provides no special capability.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 03 Aug 18, at 18:38.

  12. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    That is not what I was saying. I meant that the distinction you are making between Barak-8 and NASAMS as "military SAMs" and "civilian SAMs" does not make sense. Nothing is stopping you from deploying Spyder-MR or Barak-8 to defend a city. There is no capability shortfall vis a vis the NASAMS. That is why I suspect political considerations in this purchase.

    If you've been watching recent IA and IAF procurements of air-defense systems and local AD radar and SAM programs it was clear that we were moving towards a layered AD consisting of Spyder-MR (and DRDO QR-SAM currently in development), Akash (followed by Akash-NG with active seeker) and MR-SAM (followed by an extended range version in development) and DRDO ABM system for defense against ballistic missiles. When S-400 purchase was announced, it made sense since it provided some special long-range capabilities not available in other systems that we have along with limited ABM capability.
    I agree overall with what you are saying. Overlapping capabilities? Yes. Political reasons for the purpose? Yes, I already said that in post #672.

    What I don't agree or doubt is in bold. If tomorrow India goes on the offensive against Pak, and Pak lobs a few nukes towards Indian cities, then knowing that ABM shield works and can protect the civilian population makes India confident to progress into the conflict, assured of her military objectives. If a war is won over ghost cities, then that is no less than a defeat.

    India doesn't have a trillion dollar of cash reserves. So, the first buys would concentrate on safeguarding military assets. Then comes protecting major centres of economic activity, which is metros like Delhi (also because the top decision making political brass sits there), Mumbai, Bangalore etc. Thereby saving the population too. Mind you, India's nuclear retaliation strategy also is counter-value.

    Again, are capabilities overlapping? Yes. But it is a gradual process. Now, does post #676 make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    NASAMS came out of nowhere, suddenly and provides no special capability.
    Give and take.
    Last edited by Oracle; 03 Aug 18, at 19:49.
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  13. #688
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Even people from the US administration knows very little, or none at all. I don't see any reason why common citizens need to know matters pertaining to National Security.
    Not referring to strategic just conventional. There is nothing secret here. This is what i found

    The Brahmos has been inducted in three regiments of the Indian Army. The army has raised one regiment (numbered 861) of the Mark I and two missile regiments of the BrahMos Mark II, numbered 862 and 863. The first regiment with five mobile launcher cost $83 million to set up. Each of the two new regiments would have between four and six batteries of three to four Mobile Autonomous Launchers (72 missiles per regiment) that can be connected to a mobile command post. All these regiments will be part of the army's existing 40th and 41st Artillery Divisions.

    The operational BrahMos regiments are:

    861 Regiment (BrahMos Block I, deployed in north Rajasthan area)
    862 Regiment (BrahMos Block II, deployed in south Rajasthan area)
    863 Regiment (BrahMos Block II)
    864 Regiment (BrahMos Block III, ordered for Arunachal Pradesh area)
    That's all we have so far. We will have more when the S-400 & other deals come through

    See for instance, China

    https://www.presstv.com/DetailFr/201...Triumf-missile

    China will reportedly receive a total of two S-400 regiments and the second regimental set is expected to be delivered by the end of 2018.
    https://www.businessinsider.in/Russi...w/62572983.cms
    China has already deployed 15 divisions of the S-300 along the coast of Fujian province, targeting northern Taiwan, according to Asia Times. The S-400 system, of which China reportedly plans to buy six batteries, likely brings the entire island of Taiwan within range of Chinese forces for the first time.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Aug 18, at 20:12.

  14. #689
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Not referring to strategic just conventional. So this is what i found

    That's all we have so far. We will have more is the S-400 deal comes through

    There is nothing secret here. See for instance, China

    https://www.presstv.com/DetailFr/201...Triumf-missile

    https://www.businessinsider.in/Russi...w/62572983.cms
    S-400 is for air defence. India right now doesn't have the missile numbers to fight China and destroy Chinese cities, but have enough to light up China's military assets - those that would be gearing up to fight India. They can't leave the SCS alone to the US. Or even, say, Vietnam. :D

    Here, check this.
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  15. #690
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