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Thread: Rafale Wins MMRCA Bid

  1. #556
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    Is he refering to the original buy, or is a new lot beging bought?
    Seemed like the original buy


    Well, France sells planes, makes $$ and keeps jobs, the IAF finally starts to sign up for fighters. So... win for all?
    Depends how much we paid. When Modi went over in 2015 the price was $11.8mn per , then i read somewhere price hasd dropped to $7.8 (!) is that for the next order. Who knows

  2. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Seemed like the original buy



    Depends how much we paid. When Modi went over in 2015 the price was $11.8mn per , then i read somewhere price hasd dropped to $7.8 (!) is that for the next order. Who knows
    The new price could be due to currency fluctuations (granted, I can't recall trends in the exchange rates of rupees to euros), reducing the scope of the offsets, or a combination of thereof and other things.

  3. #558
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    So we got 36 rafales, and the remaining 90 is to be used as leverage to get a make in India program from the French. When that happens is to be seen

  4. #559
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    So we got 36 rafales, and the remaining 90 is to be used as leverage to get a make in India program from the French. When that happens is to be seen
    Source please.

    This bania mentality of the GoI will never cease to exist.

  5. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    So we got 36 rafales, and the remaining 90 is to be used as leverage to get a make in India program from the French. When that happens is to be seen
    90 is too small a number, imho, to justify such a program. And, considering the (supposed) future of the IaF (such as the T-50), if India buys 90 directly from France, then that's it for the IaF's Rafales.

  6. #561
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    So we got 36 rafales, and the remaining 90 is to be used as leverage to get a make in India program from the French. When that happens is to be seen
    I don't think that Rafale was the best choice during the MMRCA competition, but it's a modern, solid, and flexible 4+ gen, and now that India owns 36 they should go all in and order a lot more than 90 (300+) for both the IAF and navalized variant for IN (depending on how happy the IN is with their MiG 29s), using a much larger order for leverage on price and the desired domestic production line.

    I think India is in desperate need of standardization and economies of scale among their fighters. The variety platter approach is horribly inefficient when it comes to spares, maintenance, training, and upgrades thus capability rates suffer accordingly and the IAF continues to bleed out. Standardizing around the Rafale will allow older types to be retired completely and Tejas development to continue domestically until HAL can churn out a solid product in useful numbers. The MiG 21, MiG 27, Mirage 2000, and Jaguar fleets could all be phased out in favor of a big pile of Rafales that could collectively benefit from upgrades. Collaboration with Russia on a future 5th gen is a giant money pit when the IAF is in desperate need of recapitalization right now.
    Last edited by SteveDaPirate; 13 Mar 18, at 16:09.

  7. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    and navalized variant for IN (depending on how happy the IN is with their MiG 29s), using a much larger order for leverage on price and the desired domestic production line.
    On this: anyone knows if the french made any tests or analysys concerning the Rafale's uses of ramp?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    I think India is in desperate need of standardization and economies of scale among their fighters.
    India's current line up looks like something straight out of WWII or the early cold war, in terms of number of models... eight diferent models of fighters (9 if you count 2 diferent models of Mi-29), from as many generations. Whoever's in charge of the IaF's logistics must be a combination of magician and juggler...

  8. #563
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    On this: anyone knows if the french made any tests or analysys concerning the Rafale's uses of ramp?
    I believe this is where things currently stand:

    Apparently both Dassault and Boeing have expressed confidence in their aircraft operating in STOBAR configuration from a ramp, although being able to get off the deck doesn't tell you how much fuel and ordnance they can take with them... (Better get moving on the A330 MRTT deal!)

    • The Rafale M would have great commonality with IAF aircraft (95% reportedly) but doesn't feature folding wings like the Super Hornet and MiG 29K and thus doesn't fit on carrier lifts.
    • Block III or ADV Super Hornets would be a strong option if IAF had adopted them for MMRCA, but at this point does India need another orphan fleet of ~50 fighters?
    • Tejas naval variant hasn't solved weight or structural problems for carrier operations but has political pull as a domestic option.
    • IN apparently isn't satisfied with MiG 29K due to operational issues.
    • Naval Gripen is viewed as vaporware.
    • F-35B would be a great fit with proven STOVL capability, but doesn't appear to be for sale at the moment.
    Last edited by SteveDaPirate; 13 Mar 18, at 17:59.

  9. #564
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Source please.

    This bania mentality of the GoI will never cease to exist.
    A deduction by an analyst on a show i was watching, sounds plausible

    https://youtu.be/oYoPPBOjwOY?t=1390

    ...maybe that is the intention of the govt
    Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Mar 18, at 18:10.

  10. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    I believe this is where things currently stand:

    Apparently both Dassault and Boeing have expressed confidence in their aircraft operating in STOBAR configuration from a ramp, although being able to get off the deck doesn't tell you how much fuel and ordnance they can take with them... (Better get moving on the A330 MRTT deal!)
    So... no actual tests... can't say I blame them: why risk it untill the navy at least firms up what it's future is?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    [*]The Rafale M would have great commonality with IAF aircraft (95% reportedly) but doesn't feature folding wings like the Super Hornet and MiG 29K and thus doesn't fit on carrier lifts.
    True on the folding wings, but the Rafale's wingspan is smaller by 1.2meters (and shorter by almost 2 meters!), so I don't know how much is left... and I can't find elevator dimensions for the Vikramaditya. Found a document stating the Charles de Gaulle's elevators are 19x12.5 m in size.

  11. #566
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    I don't think that Rafale was the best choice during the MMRCA competition, but it's a modern, solid, and flexible 4+ gen, and now that India owns 36 they should go all in and order a lot more than 90 (300+) for both the IAF and navalized variant for IN (depending on how happy the IN is with their MiG 29s), using a much larger order for leverage on price and the desired domestic production line.
    Right, if one wants to make Rafales in India then why is 126 the max. That's just eight squadrons so they must be intending to build more.

    There must be something behind the price drop from $11.8bn to $7.8bn for 126

    I think India is in desperate need of standardization and economies of scale among their fighters. The variety platter approach is horribly inefficient when it comes to spares, maintenance, training, and upgrades thus capability rates suffer accordingly and the IAF continues to bleed out. Standardizing around the Rafale will allow older types to be retired completely and Tejas development to continue domestically until HAL can churn out a solid product in useful numbers. The MiG 21, MiG 27, Mirage 2000, and Jaguar fleets could all be phased out in favor of a big pile of Rafales that could collectively benefit from upgrades.
    It's the legacy of the international political environment and positions we hold in respect to that environment. We won't sign on to any camp. So diversity in platforms is seen as security from any embargo.

    it comes with a huge price tag but nobody said independence came for cheap

    Collaboration with Russia on a future 5th gen is a giant money pit when the IAF is in desperate need of recapitalization right now.
    Aha, what confused me is jlvr's point about T-50 ? 5th gen and when that needs to be ready

    Making this point to the Russians ain't going to be easy.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Mar 18, at 18:29.

  12. #567
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    Admiral Harris said that India could buy F-35s.

    Though unless then IAF drops the standard tech transfer requirements, that won't happen (or they could wait for 2050 for the ToT if they really want to wait that long).

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...o-india-report

    (the comments are a hoot, that dawn whatever his name schmuck apparently has a reputation for being a PKK fanboy, incidentally. But watch out for the inevitable racists to come flooding in there soon enough).
    Last edited by Skywatcher; 15 Mar 18, at 05:19.

  13. #568
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skywatcher View Post
    Admiral Harris said that India could buy F-35s.

    Though unless then IAF drops the standard tech transfer requirements, that won't happen (or they could wait for 2050 for the ToT if they really want to wait that long).
    Don't know why the F-35 has come up because i was under the impression the f-35 was considered and ruled out

  14. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Don't know why the F-35 has come up because i was under the impression the f-35 was considered and ruled out
    What about the Indian navy? Maybe they'd like some F-35Bs...

  15. #570
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    What about the Indian navy? Maybe they'd like some F-35Bs...
    Maybe. since Harris has said it then Navy might be likely

    Was referring to the MMRCA program only

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