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Thread: Rafale Wins MMRCA Bid

  1. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    By using a little bit of everything, India's military will never know which bits are in working order on any given day, thus India's enemies will never know what to prepare for!

    /s

  2. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    And the list of air-ground must be... interesting...
    Let's just say Israel, France & Russia are great buddies & generally never say no... !

  3. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    By using a little bit of everything, India's military will never know which bits are in working order on any given day, thus India's enemies will never know what to prepare for!

    /s
    Things generally work, as maintenance resources(people) are not a problem. Helps having a large pool to choose from. Since the Russian kit is the biggest headache, local industry has been created to support Russian jets. A painful lesson from the 91 fall of Soviet union. The western kit have good support from the manufacturer.

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    Looks like the IAF is pushing for more Rafales. Decision on it vs the new russian/indian heavy is pending, but cost seems to be a factor:

    the force contending the French fighters will prove to be much cheaper than the proposed fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) to be developed with Russia

    Not to mention not adding another diferent fighter to the inventory...

  5. #500
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    Looks like the IAF is pushing for more Rafales. Decision on it vs the new russian/indian heavy is pending, but cost seems to be a factor:

    the force contending the French fighters will prove to be much cheaper than the proposed fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) to be developed with Russia

    Not to mention not adding another diferent fighter to the inventory...
    Don't forget the possible addition of F-16s and F-18s that are looking increasingly likely!

    This article is a good read with some interesting insights into the motivations for renewed interested in American fighters post MMRCA.

    http://carnegieendowment.org/2017/08...navy-pub-72706

    Because Lockheed Martin is transitioning toward the manufacture of the F-35 in the United States, the company has committed to transferring the entire F-16 production line to India...

    The Lockheed Martin-Tata joint venture promises to advance Modi’s employment generation objectives far more ambitiously because it would integrate India into the global aviation supply chain at a level that Saab cannot match. Beyond supporting the IAF’s own F-16s, all future F-16 sales globally — including to the four-six countries that are currently exploring new acquisitions — could occur from production in Indian plants. Furthermore, India would become a critical node in supporting the 3,200 F-16s still in service in 25 countries (including the 950-odd F-16s that will remain in US Air Force (USAF) service for another two decades)
    The Rafale, unlike the Super Hornet, does not have fully foldable wings and, hence, cannot use the Vikrant’s elevators without major modifications that would add to its already high unit costs.
    Last edited by SteveDaPirate; 01 Sep 17, at 16:10.

  6. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    Don't forget the possible upcoming addition of F-16s and F-18s!

    http://carnegieendowment.org/2017/08...navy-pub-72706
    Tbh, I don't think the F-18 has much chance. The 2-engine-heavy/medium fighter race seems to be down to the Rafale and the son-of-T-50. The F-16, otoh, may very well find itself on the lightfighter race, along with the Grippen, specially if the Tejas continues to flop...

  7. #502
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    Tbh, I don't think the F-18 has much chance. The 2-engine-heavy/medium fighter race seems to be down to the Rafale and the son-of-T-50. The F-16, otoh, may very well find itself on the lightfighter race, along with the Grippen, specially if the Tejas continues to flop...
    I think it was you who said years ago that the f16 had a chance even though the americans were out of the MMRCA race. Made no sense at the time but i kept seeing articles mentioning f16. Still do. Some curious staying power there.

    It didn't occur that the f16 could make the cut as a light fighter. How could anyone call the f16 light : D

    Bet if Chogy saw this he would protest
    Last edited by Double Edge; 01 Sep 17, at 16:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I think it was you who said years ago that the f16 had a chance even though the americans were out of the MMRCA race. Made no sense at the time but i kept seeing articles mentioning f16. Still do. Some curious staying power there.
    Yes, but that was before the purchase of the Rafale, and the apparent comitement to working on the T-50. Back then, the MMRCA program was completely stalled, with the IAF getting more and more desperate, so every fighter seemed to have a chance. Things change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    It didn't occur that the f16 could make the cut as a light fighter. How could anyone call the f16 light : D
    Well... it's single engined, the Block 50 weights roughly 1-2 tons less (empty weight) than the Rafale and 9 tons less than an Su-30 or the T-50... so, yes, in this context, I do call it "light". And I do think it's best chance to grabbing a indian deal is vs the Tejas, specially if the F-16 is, at least, assembled in India.

  9. #504
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    And I do think it's best chance to grabbing a indian deal is vs the Tejas, specially if the F-16 is, at least, assembled in India.
    That matches the Grippens advantage which i heard came with tech transfer. Cost comes next and other intangibles

  10. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    That matches the Grippens advantage which i heard came with tech transfer. Cost comes next and other intangibles
    Politics.

  11. #506
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    If there is a US tilt then those f16 are in with a good chance. Never hear anyone discuss them in the light combat context though. Maybe they have, don't follow this area much.

    Another thing. Coverage about this subject in India is abysmal. Unless you know the industry, its impossible to get a coherent take. Every time a decision is taken it comes as a surprise to what you heard prior. It's like the media and the govt are always on a different page. Gives an idea how many news plants take place.

    Wonder if an explanation i heard recently is credible. Buying US platforms is bad because other lobbies don't like it. So they push their lines to their people and confuse us.

    US platforms are bad (obligatory loss of sovereignty/lack of parts availability in a conflict slant) because they come with too many conditions or its bad because other arms lobbies that lose the deal in which its always better no deal occurs because we're so corrupt. Since the money involved is huge it takes forever to decide and initial quotes are higher later

    How the heck does a military provision itself in such an environment....they do, we just don't understand what goes on.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 01 Sep 17, at 21:06.

  12. #507
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    Tbh, I don't think the F-18 has much chance. The 2-engine-heavy/medium fighter race seems to be down to the Rafale and the son-of-T-50. The F-16, otoh, may very well find itself on the lightfighter race, along with the Grippen, specially if the Tejas continues to flop...
    The F-18 is specifically seeing interest for use off Indian Carriers as it is rated for both catapult and ski jump launches and India has or will have carriers utilizing each method. The navalized version of the Rafale is significantly more expensive without bringing any significant increase in capability over the F-18, (although it would bring some commonality with the MMRCA aircraft, not that India seems to prioritize it much...) additionally the navalized Rafale, doesn't fit in the elevators on India's existing carriers and would require the ships to be extensively modified.

    The IN is looking to maximise the value they can get with their budget, and with the political winds starting to favor closer ties with the US, the F-18 seems like a possibility.

  13. #508
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    US platforms are bad (obligatory loss of sovereignty/lack of parts availability in a conflict slant) because they come with too many conditions or its bad because other arms lobbies that lose the deal in which its always better no deal occurs because we're so corrupt. Since the money involved is huge it takes forever to decide and initial quotes are higher later

    How the heck does a military provision itself in such an environment....they do, we just don't understand what goes on.
    With the entire US production line for F-16s moving to India with the deal, issues of sovereignty and parts availability become a domestic one, and not something that relies on foreign suppliers.

  14. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    The IN is looking to maximise the value they can get with their budget, and with the political winds starting to favor closer ties with the US, the F-18 seems like a possibility.
    But if IN does go for the F-18, it will be just a (comparitively) handfull of planes, another brick on the logistics/training wall. Whereas if they use Rafales, the logistics/training chain allready exists, mostly.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    With the entire US production line for F-16s moving to India with the deal, issues of sovereignty and parts availability become a domestic one, and not something that relies on foreign suppliers.
    Which makes the F-16 very atractive. No idea what Sweden is ofering, but I doubt it will be this good...

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    http://m.indiatoday.in/story/indian-...1/1039202.html

    Highlighting the benefits of Russia stronk:

    Very expensive su30 like maintenance costs
    6.7 billion dollar investment for 4 initial prototypes
    135 million 2017 dollars per copy for 127 copies
    Induction after 2028

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