Page 3 of 34 FirstFirst 123456789101112 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 498

Thread: Rafale Wins MMRCA Bid

  1. #31
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    12 Aug 08
    Location
    UK/Europe
    Posts
    3,933
    Like I say I am not sufficiently knowlegeable to judge the pros and cons of the different systems. I do hope though the we shall not be sending more aid money in this direction.

  2. #32
    Señor Contributor Senior Contributor BD1's Avatar
    Join Date
    30 Nov 06
    Location
    estonia
    Posts
    2,836
    Quote Originally Posted by n21 View Post
    I would not agree. I think this was a great decision. Overall.

    France was desperate for a export. India just decided to squeeze the juice.

    1. India is now technically a partner country for Rafale. Just 2 nation, compared to a already 4 nation in EF. For the same money, a 50% ownership versus 20% in EF

    2. Indian Government will now expect France to open up co-operation in Neuron UCAV, Nuke Subs, BMD, Jet Engine development etc. Would UK be happy to share it's latest nuke sub tech as barter if EF is chosen?

    3. Needless to say, the French tech will now go in Indian version of Pak-FA.

    4. India now has major deals with two countries(France & Russia), which would/can form a major source of defense tech to China and Pakistan in particular(France).

    May be it will be easier to track the Pakistani Agostas once the dotted lines are signed


    However the bottom line remains that both EF & Rafale meet the technical and operational criteria and it is commonsense to pick the one with the lowest
    price. There was no first or second.
    plus the Rafale would be ready for future Indian carrier(s)?
    If i only was so smart yesterday as my wife is today

    Minding your own biz is great virtue, but situation awareness saves lives - Dok

  3. #33
    Patron
    Join Date
    04 Nov 06
    Posts
    297
    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Like I say I am not sufficiently knowlegeable to judge the pros and cons of the different systems. I do hope though the we shall not be sending more aid money in this direction.
    Frankly UK sending aid to India is the choice of UK government. Neither India has asked for it, nor stopping it will cause issues. The aid send goes directly to UK consultants working in India and NGO recognized by the UK government. The Indian government does not receive anything.

    I did read lot of comments in Telegraph, Gaurdian etc that India should have gone for EF because UK provides aid. The issue is totally un-releated.

    If aid is the criteria, then all Indian contracts should go to the Japanese, as they have been the largest provider.

    As far as India reciprocating to UK aid is concerned, people seems to easily forget the 120 Hawk Jets and Jaguar royalty to BAE or for that matter howitzers deal. Add to this fact Dassualt is 46% owned by EADS.

    I would be surprised if no British companies work with EADS and getting part of the order.

  4. #34
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Sep 10
    Location
    Bangalore
    Posts
    5,535
    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    No corruption in multibillion weapons bid
    Close Transparency Int'l and/or ALL similar organization in India immediately.
    Bear in mind this only applies to the narrow defense purchase sector.

    Corruption is to proceed unabated growing to record levels each year for eveything else

    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    Besides, you missed the Indian version of "Arab Spring" last year: 2011 Indian anti-corruption movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I didn't, tracked it very closely and then got fed up with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    With multiple corrupt billionaires and politicians already sitting behind bars, no one wants to risk becoming an open target of that movement. And it doesn't take much for the Indian media to start screaming "corruption!".
    Oh, how many times do i hear that bolded bit, 'behind bars'.

    What is never mentioned is that these people are UNDERTRIALS.

    That means they are yet to be convicted, their case yet to come up or is in court. The usual reply you to get to this revelation is that its STILL better than before

    Given the spurious charges against its looking good that they will NEVER be charged for anything. We will then lament how useless the system is but conveniently forget to examine the basis of the politically motivated charges brought up in the first place.

  5. #35
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Sep 10
    Location
    Bangalore
    Posts
    5,535
    Quote Originally Posted by DCL's article
    And senior government sources said the Indians had chosen ‘cheap and cheerful’ over quality. ‘They’ve gone for the Asda option instead of Waitrose,’ one source said.
    More...Well that's gratitude! We give India £1bn in aid, THEY snub the UK and give France a £13bn jet contract

    ..
    Tory MPs are furious that India has snubbed the UK when Britain is pumping nearly £1.2billion of foreign aid into the country over the next four years. France gave just £18million in 2009.
    Eh ??

    Didn't Cameron already get $1 billion worth of deals signed when he visited India over a year ago.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Feb 12, at 16:03.

  6. #36
    Regular
    Join Date
    14 Oct 10
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    That story is yet to unfold. The current announcement was only regarding the "Lowest Bidder" as far as the tender is concerned. The financial negotiations with Dassault will begin now. It'll still be a few months before they agree on a final price. After which the Ministry of Finance may think the price is too much and ask the Ministry of Defense and the IAF to go screw themselves (they did this a while back with an aerial refueller tender). Nothing is cast in stone yet.
    If there was a "Worst Bureaucracy in the World" award, we'd win it hands down.
    The French government will make sure that Dassault doesn't screw this up .
    This is a done deal.. It's time for the Eurofighter Consortium to analyse the situation and find ways to make Typhoons price more competitive.

  7. #37
    Contributor
    Join Date
    26 Mar 09
    Posts
    517
    Quote Originally Posted by BD1 View Post
    plus the Rafale would be ready for future Indian carrier(s)?
    Highly unlikely. Rafale was designed around CATOBAR.

  8. #38
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Dec 04
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    3,960
    Quote Originally Posted by cr9527 View Post
    Highly unlikely. Rafale was designed around CATOBAR.
    India's second Vikrant Class carrier is on the boards with a CATOBAR.

    The Indian Navy has its own shopping list for atleast 80 multi-role aircraft. The likelihood that those 80 aircraft will also come from Dassault has increased exponentially since this recent news.


    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Oh, how many times do i hear that bolded bit, 'behind bars'.

    What is never mentioned is that these people are UNDERTRIALS.

    That means they are yet to be convicted, their case yet to come up or is in court. The usual reply you to get to this revelation is that its STILL better than before

    Given the spurious charges against its looking good that they will NEVER be charged for anything. We will then lament how useless the system is but conveniently forget to examine the basis of the politically motivated charges brought up in the first place.
    Doesn't matter. Take one look at Kalmadi. Their reputation is tarnished and their political careers significantly dented and all their lives they will be bounded by the courts. They will never be able hold a cabinet position again even if they are not convicted.

    That is what I meant when I said no one will risk filling their own pockets from such major defence deals since the likelihood to be caught in the nets is quite high. They would rather steal from low profile sectors.
    Last edited by Tronic; 02 Feb 12, at 21:14.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

  9. #39
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Dec 04
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    3,960
    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I do hope though the we shall not be sending more aid money in this direction.
    This was never a political deal; had it been so, the US would have won the contract hands down.

    As for British tabloids talking of 1 billion dollars in aid, gratitude, etc, etc; they are forgetting a few things here.

    For one, India has already provided the UK with multi-billion dollar defence contracts; like the very recent Hawk deal.

    Secondly, its not about the money!

    Not that this aid money was ever provided to the Indian government, but even if we suppose it was; The UK government should be asked, does India really need a billion dollars in aid when it itself gives out billions of dollars in aid to other countries, spends billions on defence equipment and has its own space program? What India wants is access to technology and that is something the British are reluctant to share and the French have been more than willing to provide.

    I'm sure India would've been more than happy to provide a billion dollars in "aid" to the UK only if the UK agreed to share some of their technologies.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

  10. #40
    Contributor ambidex's Avatar
    Join Date
    03 Aug 09
    Location
    Te Rotorua-nui-a-Kahumatamomoe
    Posts
    518
    Former air chiefs hail 'free and fair' selection of Rafale : North News - India Today

    Former air chiefs have hailed the selection of Rafale as an important milestone for IAF which desperately needed new jets and complimented the selection team for ensuring the process was fair and transparent."It was the first time that the complex calculation was used in an Indian military contract and the IAF consulted experts from the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Harvard University and even Metroman E. Sreedharan," former air chief S.P Tyagi said.

    Former air chief P.V. Naik, who was at the helm last year, said it was a good step. He said the credit for keeping the bidding process fair goes to a team that was set up to spearhead the contract.Naik's predecessor Tyagi gave some more insights. He said the formula to calculate lifecycle cost was worked out keeping in mind that it should not suit a particular vendor.

    It has taken a decade for the contract to reach at a stage where final price negotiations will be held with French company Dassault, the maker of Rafale.Dassault has emerged winner out of a pack of six including Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet, which were eliminated last April along with Sweden's Gripen and Russia's Mig-35
    Last edited by ambidex; 02 Feb 12, at 22:13.

  11. #41
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    15 Dec 06
    Posts
    996
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    Secondly, its not about the money!

    I'm sure India would've been more than happy to provide a billion dollars in "aid" to the UK only if the UK agreed to share some of their technologies.
    Well if we agree that proper procedures have been followed throughout, during this tender, then it most definitely is about the money.
    The Rafale simply has a lower combined base price + life-cycle cost than the Typhoon. When the IAF shortlisted the Rafale and Typhoon as being the only aircraft that cleared the tech-evals, they basically gave the govt. the go-ahead to buy the cheaper one of the two regardless of the comparative performance of the aircraft. All that matters is that both aircraft meet the IAF's ASQRs.(Air staff quality requirements).

    As for the UK "aid" question, if you are giving a country aid expecting to be awarded a huge defense contract as a result of it, then it is called a "bribe". Not "aid". If India starts handing out quid pro quo defense deals to every country which gives it aid, it'll go bankrupt.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 03 Feb 12, at 00:13.

  12. #42
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Dec 04
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    3,960
    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    Well if we agree that proper procedures have been followed throughout, during this tender, then it most definitely is about the money.
    The Rafale simply has a lower combined base price + life-cycle cost than the Typhoon. When the IAF shortlisted the Rafale and Typhoon as being the only aircraft that cleared the tech-evals, they basically gave the govt. the go-ahead to buy the cheaper one of the two regardless of the comparative performance of the aircraft. All that matters is that both aircraft meet the IAF's ASQRs.(Air staff quality requirements).
    Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was inferring to the "aid" money the UK government is talking about, not the tenders.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

  13. #43
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Bandaid

    Join Date
    04 Oct 04
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,996
    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Seems a bit short sighted on behalf of Indian airforce to buy what is generaly acknowledged to be an inferior system.
    Come on, it is in the same league as the Eurofighter.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  14. #44
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Dec 04
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    3,960
    Here is one perspective on Rafale's win.


    The Real Reasons for Rafale’s Indian Victory


    By Giovanni de Briganti

    PARIS --- While many observers cite technology transfer, prices and performance as being major factors in India’s selection of the Rafale as its next-generation fighter, reality is very different even if these factors obviously did play a significant role.

    In the same way that it is true that Rafale lost several competitions through no fault of its own, it must be recognized that its victory in India was also won, to a great extent, through no fault of its own. The real reason for its victory is political, and the long memory of Indian politicians was a major contributing factor.

    This is not to say, however, that Rafale’s own impressive qualities had nothing to do with its selection. The Indian Air Force, which was extensively briefed by the French air force in the autumn, was particularly impressed by its operational performance during the Libyan bombing campaign and in Afghanistan. Rafale also has a naval variant which could be of future interest to India, given its plans to buy and build aircraft carriers, while the recent decision to upgrade India’s Mirage 2000H fighters will simplify the air force’s logistics chain, as these will share with Rafale many weapons and other equipment.

    The Indian Air Force also is a satisfied user of long standing of French fighters, going back to the Dassault Ouragan in the 1950s. It was also particularly appreciative of the performance of its Mirages during the 1999 Kargil campaign against Pakistan, and of the support it then obtained from France. During that campaign, India obtained French clearance – and possibly more - to urgently adapt Israeli and Russian-supplied laser-guided bombs to the Mirages, which were thus able to successfully engage high-altitude targets that Indian MiG-23s and MiG-27s had been unable to reach.

    Rafale was preferred because of lower costs, and the Indian air force's familiarity with French warplanes such as the Mirage, Bloomberg reported Feb. 1 quoting an Indian source who asked not be named. "Unit-wise, the French plane is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French," the source said.

    To Indian officials, France’s steadfastness as a military ally contrasted strongly with that of the United States, which stopped F-16 deliveries to Pakistan (but kept the money) when it found it expedient to do so, and slowed or vetoed delivery of components for Light Combat Aircraft that India was developing. And, of course, the 1998 arms embargo, decreed by the US after India’s nuclear test in May of that year, left a very bad taste in Indian mouths. France, on the contrary, was the only Western nation not to impose sanctions on that occasion.

    That, Indian sources say, was New Delhi’s real reason for eliminating Boeing and Lockheed Martin from the fighter competition; India has resolved, these sources say, to buy only second-line equipment from the U.S., such as transport (C-17, C-130J) or maritime patrol aircraft (P-8I). Vital weapons such as missiles and fighters, when they cannot be locally produced, will remain the preserve of France and Russia.

    Political considerations were also a significant factor playing against Rafale’s final competitor, the Eurofighter Typhoon. As this aircraft is produced by a consortium of four nations, each with different foreign policies and different attitudes and tolerances to arms exports, Indian officials were a bit nervous about their ultimate reliability as a single supplier.

    Germany is a long-standing Indian aviation partner, and a respected role model for Indian politicians, many of whom were educated there. German companies – essentially the former Messerschmitt-Boelkow-Blohm, now part of EADS - helped Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. develop both the LCA and the Advanced Light Helicopter, now called Dhruv. These links were the reason the Eurofighter bid was led by Germany’s Cassidian, and not BAE Systems, the former colonial power. But Germany had dithered over technology transfer for LCA, soft-pedaled on ALH tech transfer when German pacifists raised their eyebrows, and coughed when India almost went to war with Pakistan over Kargil and Kashmir, so in the final analysis it could not be considered a reliable supplier of major weapons.

    Italy has never sold a major weapon to India, and so could bring neither influence nor reputation to support Eurofighter, while the third partner, Spain, is totally absent from the Indian military landscape.

    This left BAE Systems as the best-known Eurofighter partner in India, and so by default as its ultimate public face. BAE in 2003 sold £1.5 billion’s worth of Hawk jet trainers to India, with a follow-on, £500 million order in 2010. However, its previous major sale to India was the Jaguar light attack aircraft in the 1970s. In fact, this aircraft was jointly developed by Britain and France on a 50/50 basis, and while it was license-produced by HAL it was never really successful as a fighter. Furthermore, France could claim as much benefit from its Indian career as BAE.

    Taken together, the Eurofighter partner nations posed an even thornier problem: in case of war, German law prohibits deliveries of weapons and spares, Italian law and public opinions would demand an embargo, while Spanish legislation is murky. What would happen, Indian politicians must have wondered, if after buying the Eurofighter they went to war? Would spares and weapons be forthcoming, or would they be embargoed? The political risk was obviously too big to take.

    Weapons also played a significant role in persuading India to opt for Rafale: not only is its weapons range mostly French-made, and thus not subject to a third-party embargo, but so are all of its sensors. Eurofighter, whose air-to-air missiles include the US-made AIM-120 Amraam and the German-led IRIS-T, and whose primary air-to-ground weapon is the US-made Paveway, was obviously at a competitive disadvantage in this respect.

    Furthermore, the Rafale is nuclear-capable and will replace the Mirage 2000N in French service as the carrier of the newly-upgraded ASMP/A nuclear stand-off missile; it is also capable of firing the AM-39 Exocet missile, giving it an anti-ship capability that its competitors do not have. India is also interested in fitting its BrahMos supersonic missile to a wide range of its combat aircraft, and Rafale could apparently carry it.

    Given that India had sworn to buy the cheapest compliant competitor, it would have been unable to justify picking the Rafale had this not been offered at the lower price. While official figures have not been released, and indeed may never be, initial reports from New Delhi claim that Rafale was offered at a unit price of $4-$5 million less than Eurofighter, which is a surprisingly large advantage given the French aircraft’s reputation of being high-priced.

    The French offer also featured substantially lower costs of ownership, according to the same reports, thanks to lower fuel consumption and simpler maintenance requirements.

    If true, these figures imply the French offer undercut Eurofighter by over $600 million, which is a large enough difference for one French insider to wonder whether Dassault Aviation will ever make any money on the contract.

    But, even if it doesn’t, the Indian contract gives Rafale instant legitimacy, not only because of the thoroughness and transparency of the bidding process, but also because India is the only country to have fought four and a half major wars since 1948, and so knows something about air combat.

    For Dassault, the Rafale program will now remain active, with a stabilized production line, for decades to come, and the company will have that much more time to find additional customers. Keeping its production line and supply chain humming at an economically-viable rate are sufficiently valuable achievements to push immediate profits into the sidelines. Supporting 126 – and possibly 206, if India buys an optional second batch – combat aircraft, and providing spares, fixes and upgrades over the next 40 years, will generate gigantic profits, and this more than justified lowering Dassault’s notoriously high profit margins.

    In fact, as one industry official noted, "this is France's answer to 'Al Yamamah', but with twice as many aircraft," drawing a parallel with the UK's sale of Tornado fighters and related services to Saudi Arabia, which was instrumental in keeping BAE Systems prosperous throughout the 1980s and 1990s.

    And, as French Defense Minister Gérard Longuet told reporters during an impromptu press conference in Parliament, France may soon find “that good news travels in formation,” implying that further, long-deferred contracts might soon be announced.

    The Real Reasons for Rafale
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

  15. #45
    Regular
    Join Date
    18 Apr 05
    Location
    Saint John
    Posts
    50
    A really nice article by Giovanni de Briganti, Tronic. I' also wondering if the next AIP capable submarine order could go to the French?
    Also, N21 wrote about getting covert help to locate the Agostas. What do you guys think the chances are that the French will help in that? They did help the British with the Exocets in the Falklands.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Four MMRCA Contenders Fail Leh Trials!
    By NJS21 in forum Military Aviation
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 01 Apr 10,, 21:23
  2. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 12 Aug 08,, 10:44
  3. SU 30MKI Vs Rafale
    By uss in forum Military Aviation
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 18 Oct 07,, 00:35
  4. SU 30MKI Vs Rafale
    By uss in forum Military Aviation
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 03 Aug 05,, 05:18

Tags for this Thread

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •