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Thread: Rafale Wins MMRCA Bid

  1. #16
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    No corruption in multibillion weapons bid
    Close Transparency Int'l and/or ALL similar organization in India immediately.
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  2. #17
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    No corruption in multibillion weapons bid
    Close Transparency Int'l and/or ALL similar organization in India immediately.
    Defence procurement is a touchy subject in India ever since the Bofors scandal carried out by the PM and several ministers of the GoI in the '80s. If you thought the MMRCA selection process was long; Its been around 25 years since the Indian army has been trying to procure new artillery guns, yet not a single new gun has been bought because everyone is too damn scared to invoke old memories when the government was indicted for the Bofors scandal of the '80s.

    Besides, you missed the Indian version of "Arab Spring" last year: 2011 Indian anti-corruption movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    With multiple corrupt billionaires and politicians already sitting behind bars, no one wants to risk becoming an open target of that movement. And it doesn't take much for the Indian media to start screaming "corruption!".
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  3. #18
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    Well in that case, here's hoping the InAF was able to drive a hard bargain...especially in terms of a generous parts/maintenance/training contract.

  4. #19
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    Defence procurement is a touchy subject in India ever since the Bofors scandal carried out by the PM and several ministers of the GoI in the '80s. If you thought the MMRCA selection process was long; Its been around 25 years since the Indian army has been trying to procure new artillery guns, yet not a single new gun has been bought because everyone is too damn scared to invoke old memories when the government was indicted for the Bofors scandal of the '80s.

    Besides, you missed the Indian version of "Arab Spring" last year: 2011 Indian anti-corruption movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    With multiple corrupt billionaires and politicians already sitting behind bars, no one wants to risk becoming an open target of that movement. And it doesn't take much for the Indian media to start screaming "corruption!".
    Good for you if you really have no corruption politicians. However I reserve the right to have doubts - after all, we talk politicians here and billions of dollars.

    You'd think they learned something in the past 5000 years, yet they still fail on corruption and sex

    I haven't missed the Anti-corruption movement last year. I think something similar was tried in China, as well.

    Anyway, the French are notorious for corruption in arms deals. First to come to my mind is Karachi affair (or scandal) that happened a bit western from your country 15-20 years ago? Guess what Sarkozy had role in it The deal was 800mn something (think dollars).

    Hope we will still be around in 10-15 years to discuss this if this turns my way
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Well in that case, here's hoping the InAF was able to drive a hard bargain...especially in terms of a generous parts/maintenance/training contract.
    That story is yet to unfold. The current announcement was only regarding the "Lowest Bidder" as far as the tender is concerned. The financial negotiations with Dassault will begin now. It'll still be a few months before they agree on a final price. After which the Ministry of Finance may think the price is too much and ask the Ministry of Defense and the IAF to go screw themselves (they did this a while back with an aerial refueller tender). Nothing is cast in stone yet.
    If there was a "Worst Bureaucracy in the World" award, we'd win it hands down.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 01 Feb 12, at 03:41.

  6. #21
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Well in that case, here's hoping the InAF was able to drive a hard bargain...especially in terms of a generous parts/maintenance/training contract.
    I hope so too.

    By the way, the IAF was not part of this decision. The IAF's job was to select the birds that met their requirements; After the IAF listed both Typhoon and Rafale to fit the bill, it was the Ministry of Defence which made the decision as to whichever company could provide the better offer.

    The total cost of this purchase goes well beyond the $10.4 billion originally stated (those are more like 2004 figures). I believe the actual cost is slated to be closer to the $20billion mark.
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  7. #22
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Good for you if you really have no corruption politicians. However I reserve the right to have doubts - after all, we talk politicians here and billions of dollars.
    I'm not saying we don't have any corrupt politicians, we've got them by the dozen! I'm just saying none of them are willing to leach money out of such high profile departments and risk shutting down their public money stealing businesses; because these will likely permanently finish off their political career. See; Kanimozhi, A. Raja



    Anyway, the French are notorious for corruption in arms deals. First to come to my mind is Karachi affair (or scandal) that happened a bit western from your country 15-20 years ago? Guess what Sarkozy had role in it The deal was 800mn something (think dollars).
    Pakistan is a different ballgame. There's a reason Pakistanis adoringly call their President, Mr. 10%.

    And besides, I'm sure Dassault would not like to go the way of Bofors Defence, Denel, BVT, and ofcourse IAI (Israeli Aerospace Industries). To get one deal through, they will not risk getting blacklisted as these companies which have conducted, or attempted to grease some palms in the past.
    Last edited by Tronic; 01 Feb 12, at 03:51.
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  8. #23
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    Thank God for such mercies...our chaps took a decision. *I could'nt stop crying*

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Well in that case, here's hoping the InAF was able to drive a hard bargain...especially in terms of a generous parts/maintenance/training contract.

    Oh yes, this is just the beginning but the Rafale as an independent fighter program will survive . They need additional orders from Brazil and UAE very soon

    Dassault face tough road to close India fighter contract - FRANCE - FRANCE 24

  10. #25
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    Cameron opens fire on France's 'Asda option' jet as he vows to do everything he can to persuade India to order British warplane
    French company 'preferred-bidder' to provide India with 126 fighters
    Mr Cameron says Typhoon is a 'superb aircrat' and much better than Rafale
    By Tim Shipman

    Last updated at 12:10 AM on 2nd February 2012


    War of words: David Cameron last night pledged to do 'everything' he can to get India to change its mind and buy the British-built Eurofighter. David Cameron stepped up his war of words with France yesterday, rubbishing the quality of a French jet that the Indian government has chosen to buy over the British-built Eurofighter. The Prime Minister vowed to do ‘everything I can’ to persuade the Indians to change their mind and award the £13billion deal to British company BAE Systems and its three European partners. India announced on Tuesday that French company Dassault Rafale had won preferred-bidder status to build 126 fighters because its equipment was cheaper. MPs branded the decision ‘disastrous’ for Britain as government lawyers investigated whether the UK could file a legal challenge to the decision. Going on the attack, Mr Cameron rubbished the quality of the Rafale jet, telling MPs the Typhoon was a ‘superb aircraft with far better capabilities than Rafale’.

    And senior government sources said the Indians had chosen ‘cheap and cheerful’ over quality. ‘They’ve gone for the Asda option instead of Waitrose,’ one source said.
    More...Well that's gratitude! We give India £1bn in aid, THEY snub the UK and give France a £13bn jet contract

    Mr Cameron added: ‘I will do everything I can – as I have already – to encourage the Indians to look at Typhoon, because I think it is such a good aircraft.’
    The Indian decision handed a propaganda victory to French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who last week taunted Mr Cameron with the sneering claim that Britain ‘has no industry’.
    'Cheap and cheerful': The French-built Rafale jet which was described last night as the 'Asda option'. Tory MPs are furious that India has snubbed the UK when Britain is pumping nearly £1.2billion of foreign aid into the country over the next four years. France gave just £18million in 2009. Tory David Davis, who represents workers at BAE’s Brough plant, near Hull, said: ‘That is disastrous news for thousands of workers up and down the country.’ He urged Mr Cameron to do more, ‘given the long relationship between India and Britain and given that we give many times more aid to India than France ever did’. The Government was again on the back foot yesterday after it emerged that the Ministry of Defence will no longer give British companies priority over their foreign rivals when buying weapons and equipment for the Armed Forces. Defence procurement minister Peter Luff said the only exception would be when buying British was necessary to maintain national security, as he outlined details of a new White Paper. Unions accused the Government of a ‘stunning betrayal’ of UK manufacturing for the decision to buy defence equipment ‘off the shelf’ from the cheapest supplier. Unite, which represents staff at BAE Systems plants in Samlesbury and Warton in Lancashire, called on Mr Cameron to fly to India. The Prime Minister’s official spokesman said No 10 was in talks with the British High Commission in Delhi, exploring ways to reopen the bidding process. 'Superior': The British manufactured Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft which the Indians have rejected because it is more expensive
    He said: ‘We are looking at this issue closely. Clearly it is not a done deal.’ He also defended the plans not to protect UK firms when bidding for contracts with the MoD on the grounds that the new plans will save money. ‘Clearly defence procurement has been a problem in the past. We had a huge black hole in the defence budget.
    ‘We need to ensure we get the best equipment for our Armed Forces at the best price. ‘We have a competitive defence industry in this country and it will continue to win contracts.’ he spokesman also defended the huge amount of aid sent to India. ‘India is still home to one third of the people in the world who live on less than 80p a day. We have targeted the poorest people and places where there are security implications for the UK.’


    Cameron opens fire on France's 'Asda option' jet as he vows to do everything he can to persuade India to order British warplane | Mail Online
    Seems the deal is still to see some action before getting finalised. The Brits surely won't let this get off so easily.
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  11. #26
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    Seems a bit short sighted on behalf of Indian airforce to buy what is generaly acknowledged to be an inferior system.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Seems a bit short sighted on behalf of Indian airforce to buy what is generaly acknowledged to be an inferior system.
    1) They haven't bought it yet - even if you are talking proverbially, the articles don't specifically reference any leading figure associated with the programme mentioning as such (I could be blind, it wouldn't be a first).

    2) It depends on the Tech Transfer. India has a budding aircraft industry, and is possibly keen to get exposure. Sure, the Rafael is on a different level to the stuff coming out of stateside, and that sought of knowledge only comes with deep integration which India probably won't get in a generation or 2 - but nevertheless.... exposure.
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  13. #28
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    I am not sufficiently knowlegable in the field to judge for myself which is the better system but the neccesarily limited feedback of the Typhoons limited role in operations over Libya suggests a positive performance. I realy don't know enough to argue the case either way in this but is often the case that when one buys the cheaper option it actualy works out more expensive in the long run as you need alot of extras that came 'as standard' with the more expensive option.

  14. #29
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Strictly restricted on Libya,Rafale put a better show.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Seems a bit short sighted on behalf of Indian airforce to buy what is generaly acknowledged to be an inferior system.
    I would not agree. I think this was a great decision. Overall.

    France was desperate for a export. India just decided to squeeze the juice.

    1. India is now technically a partner country for Rafale. Just 2 nation, compared to a already 4 nation in EF. For the same money, a 50% ownership versus 20% in EF

    2. Indian Government will now expect France to open up co-operation in Neuron UCAV, Nuke Subs, BMD, Jet Engine development etc. Would UK be happy to share it's latest nuke sub tech as barter if EF is chosen?

    3. Needless to say, the French tech will now go in Indian version of Pak-FA.

    4. India now has major deals with two countries(France & Russia), which would/can form a major source of defense tech to China and Pakistan in particular(France).

    May be it will be easier to track the Pakistani Agostas once the dotted lines are signed


    However the bottom line remains that both EF & Rafale meet the technical and operational criteria and it is commonsense to pick the one with the lowest
    price. There was no first or second.

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