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Thread: Egypt's ElBaradei: Liberals 'decimated' in vote

  1. #46
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    I will just watch, eat and drink. Promise.
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    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    So much for friendship. And that's why we're all in such a mess.All we do is watch TV,eat and drink.Few get up from the couch to do a push-up ,let alone actually fighting for something.

    Seems that I'll have to give BR a hand.Jews being full of money,I may not completely disinterested,but I won't say that in public.

    p.s Why do I have to be serious even when I'm joking?Thinking a bit,all this life is a big joke.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  3. #48
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    Lol - he quit because he was going to lose. Thanks for a nuclear Iran though.

    Egypt's ElBaradei ends presidential bid in protest
    Associated PressBy SARAH EL DEEB | Associated Press – 1 hr 28 mins ago
    http://news.yahoo.com/egypts-elbarad...11.htmlMohamed ElBaradei speaks during an interview with The Associated Press in his home in Giza, on the outskirts of Cairo, Egypt. Egypt reform leader Mohamed ElBaradei said Saturday, Jan. 14, 2012 that he won't run for president to protest military rule. (AP Photo/Bernat Armangue, File)

    FILE - In this Sunday, Dec. 4, 2011 file photo, pro-reform leader and Nobel peace …

    CAIRO (AP) — Egypt's reform leader Mohamed ElBaradei has withdrawn from the presidential race, saying a fair election is impossible under the military's grip nearly a year after Hosni Mubarak's ouster. Many fear that the ruling generals will push through a candidate of their own to preserve their power.

    The Nobel Peace laureate's pullout is a slap to the military and the credibility of its plans for Egypt's transition. He was seen as the most pro-revolution of the candidates and the strongest advocate of deep change in a country long under autocratic rule. His participation, therefore, gave a degree of legitimacy to the military-run election process.

    But in a statement Saturday, ElBaradei made clear that he saw no hope that the presidential election due by the end of June would bring a real end to the military's rule, and he added a sharp criticism that the military has behaved as if Mubarak's regime never fell.

    "I had said from the start that my conscience will not allow me to run for president or any official position unless there is a real democratic framework, that upholds the essence of democracy and not only its form," he said.

    The military council, headed by Mubarak's defense minister of 20 years, "has insisted on going down the same old path, as if no revolution took place and no regime has fallen," he said.

    ElBaradei's decision could energize the anti-military protest movement, which has been in disarray and has failed to present a unified alternative path to a transition to democracy. In a meeting with ElBaradei after his announcement Saturday, some activists expressed hope that he was now stepping forward to become a forceful, crystalizing leader for the movement.

    In an apparent attempt to keep the move from helping fuel antimilitary protests on the Jan. 25 anniversary of the start of the uprising that toppled Mubarak, the military council asked ElBaradei not to announce his decision until later, a person close to ElBaradei said, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss a private interaction.

    Many of those who organized the protests feel that the military is keeping the structure of Mubarak's regime and its own power in place. They fear that the Muslim Brotherhood, which is poised to dominate the new parliament, will cede the military's continued influence over the executive in return for a freer hand in writing a new constitution.

    "To have total change, we must work from outside the system," ElBaradei said in a video released later Saturday. He said he would work to unify youth groups, reclaim the goals of the revolution and address social justice, freedom and economic development.

    The 69-year-old ElBaradei, who received the Nobel for his work as head of the U.N. nuclear watchdog, has been a frustrating figure for some activists amid Egypt's upheaval.

    He had a significant role behind the scenes in putting together the network of youth activists that launched the 18-day uprising that ousted Mubarak. He has been sharply critical of the military's handling of the transition since.

    But he has resisted pressure to step forward as the leader of the movement, which some feel needs a figure to unify and guide it. His reluctance gave him a Hamlet-like reputation that frustrated some activists. Many Egyptians in the broader public saw him as aloof or arrogant, or too "foreign" because of his decades living abroad.

    Given that image, even some supporters worried he could not win the presidential race.

    Presidential elections are key because the ruling generals have promised to hand over power to the winner.

    But many activists and observers believe the military wants to ensure the race produces a president who will support its interests and allow it to have a strong voice in politics even after it formally steps aside.

    The military has already tried to prevent or limit civilian oversight of its budget under the future system. After decades of military men serving as president in Egypt, the generals are unlikely to want a civilian president who might try to rein in their considerable influence over the state, economic interests or seek radical changes.

    At least half a dozen other candidates have stepped forward, including ex-Arab League chief Amr Moussa, a former foreign minister under Mubarak and a popular figure. Another figure in the race who would likely be looked on favorably by the generals is Ahmed Shafiq, a former air force pilot who was a longtime friend of Mubarak and prime minister at the height of the anti-Mubarak protests.

    Moussa said he hoped ElBaradei would continue his efforts to rebuild Egypt.

    "I regret ElBaradei's withdrawal from the race, and I value his role and participation in the developments that Egypt has witnessed recently," Moussa said on his Twitter account.

    Also running is an Islamist, Abdel-Moneim Aboul-Fottouh, a longtime liberal within the Muslim Brotherhood who has gained support among the pro-revolution crowd. Aboul-Fottouh was dismissed from the Brotherhood because he entered the presidential race after the group said it would not field a candidate.

    The powerful Brotherhood continues to say it will not endorse a contender in the race. Its focus has instead been on increasing the powers of parliament, where it has emerged as the biggest faction from Egypt's nearly complete, multistage elections. A chief role of parliament will be to put together a panel to write a new constitution.

    Mahmoud el-Hetta, the activist who had first floated the idea of ElBaradei as a presidential candidate in 2009, said he was distraught at first over the withdrawal decision. But after the meeting with him Saturday, el-Hetta reconsidered.

    "He has once again turned things upside down, and has embarrassed other presidential candidates who have a weak chance because the military council has weakened the idea of a president," he said. "This would revive the idea that the revolution is not over and wins the heart of the youth groups."

    Issandr el-Amrani, an analyst on Egypt and columnist, said ElBaradei's withdrawal is "quite an indictment for the transition."

    "ElBaradei has never acted like a politician and has always acted like the moral conscience of the country," he said.

    ElBaradei has long been critical of the military's handling of the transition. The process has often been confused and nonsensical with shifting timetables — for example, presidential candidates will begin campaigning even before the constitution is written defining the president's role.

    ElBaradei and other liberals feel the transition has now become solely an issue between the military and the Brotherhood. The military council "only needs to negotiate with the Muslim Brotherhood. He rejects that ... it is not an inclusive process," el-Amrani.

    His decision to stand down from elections, and thus — in the revolutionaries' eyes — to not play the army's game, may restore some of his standing.

    Activist and blogger Omar Elhady wrote on his Twitter account: "ElBaradei's withdrawal proves he is a respectable and devoted man. I had stopped supporting him as president a while back. Now I see him as a national leader above official positions, and feared by presidents."

    But some saw in his withdrawal a blow to the youth camp who could have found in him a rallying point in the upcoming elections.

    "This is very upsetting," said Khaled Abdel-Hamid, a member of the Socialist Alliance, a youth party that contested the parliamentary elections and who also attended the stormy meeting with ElBaradei Saturday. "We lost a candidate that could have proved a challenge to the military council. He pulled out and didn't tell us what is the alternative."
    Last edited by troung; 15 Jan 12, at 07:01.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  4. #49
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    egypt's islamists secure 75 percent of parliament
    associated pressby aya batrawy | associated press – 1 hr 44 mins ago

    Egypt's Islamists secure 75 percent of parliament - Yahoo! News

    cairo (ap) — final results on saturday showed that islamist parties won nearly three-quarters of the seats in parliament in egypt's first elections since the ouster of authoritarian president hosni mubarak, according to election officials and political groups.

    The islamist domination of egypt's parliament has worried liberals and even some conservatives about the religious tone of the new legislature, which will be tasked with forming a committee to write a new constitution. Overseeing the process will be the country's mubarak-era military generals, who are still in charge.

    A coalition led by the fundamentalist muslim brotherhood won 47 percent, or 235 seats in the 498-seat parliament. The ultraconservative al-nour party was second with 25 percent, or 125 seats.

    The salifi al-nour, which was the biggest surprise of the vote, wants to impose strict islamic law in egypt, while the more moderate brotherhood, the country's best-known and organized party, has said publicly that it does not seek to force its views about an appropriate islamic lifestyle on egyptians.

    The two parties are unlikely to join forces because of ideological differences, but both have a long history of charity work in egypt's vast poverty-stricken neighborhoods and villages, giving them a degree of legitimacy and popularity across the country in areas where newer liberal parties have yet to get a foothold.

    The liberals who spearheaded the revolt that toppled mubarak struggled to organize and connect with a broader public in the vote, and did not fair as well as the islamists.

    The egyptian bloc, which is headed by a party founded by christian telecom tycoon naguib sawiris, said it won 9 percent of the seats in parliament. Egypt's oldest secular party, the wafd, also won around 9 percent.

    Newer parties, such as the liberal revolution continues party won 2 percent, as did the islamist center party, which had been banned from politics under mubarak.

    The results leave the liberal groups with little ability to maneuver in parliament, unless they choose to mobilize the street in protests or work on key issues with the dominant islamist groups, said mohamed abu-hamed, the deputy leader of the liberal free egyptians party.

    "the most important element that led islamists to win is their use of islamic language in their outreach," abu-hamed told the associated press. "they pressured people's religious conscience"

    abu-hamed vowed that the egyptian bloc will take to the streets and hold sit-ins inside parliament if the new legislator passes laws that discriminate against minorities or oversteps its boundaries.

    The final tally, which includes at least 15 seats for former regime figures, comes as little surprise since election results had been partially announced throughout the three stages of the vote, which took place over several weeks across the country. Egypt's elections commission acknowledged that there were voting irregularities, but the election has been hailed as the country's freest and fairest vote in living memory.

    The muslim brotherhood, which was banned from forming a party under mubarak but allowed to field candidates as independents, did not secure any seats under widely-rigged elections held just two months before the start of the jan. 25 uprising that led to the former president's ouster.

    The united states long shunned islamist groups like the muslim brotherhood and turned a blind-eye to the arrest and torture of salafis, who now comprise the bulk of al-nour party's constituents, under mubarak, who was a longtime u.s. Ally.

    However, top u.s. Officials from the state department have recently met with the muslim brotherhood's leaders, who have in turn assured western officials that they respect minority rights and support democracy.

    A white house statement said that president barack obama called egypt's ruling military leader, field marshal hussein tantawi, on friday and welcomed the historic seating of the lower house of egypt's parliament, which is set to convene for the first time on monday.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    ''A white house statement said that president barack obama called egypt's ruling military leader, field marshal hussein tantawi, on friday and welcomed the historic seating of the lower house of egypt's parliament, which is set to convene for the first time on monday. ''


    Gents,that's why being a politico means being and acting lower than a worm.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  6. #51
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Gents,that's why being a politico means being and acting lower than a worm.
    Or you could say he knew exactly what was going to happen but it would not be politically expedient to admit to it.

    troung laments how we got spun by the media. I give him credit for posting articles that showed there were Islamists waiting in the wings. oh how they went completely against the grain of the mainstream narrative.

    Had posted one article earlier from an indian journalist that toured arab countries over the summer and he mentioned how his hosts wife in Syria was upset she would have to wear a scarf in the future whereas in the past it did not matter. This journalist could not understand why western media was celebrating what to him being there himself on the spot appeared to be the rise of the islamists.

    The western press spun it as the 'arab spring' and a flowering of democracy in a region that never had any. The rise of the islamists was played down.

    A conspiratorial take would be that the western press does the bidding of its ruling adminstrations, OTOH the profit motive says that a story that keeps the punters coming back for more sells better.

    Either way, rise of the islamists is a moot point for western adminstrations (US, UK & France). These administrations dont believe there is any need for undue concern. Why they believe that will be interesting to find out.

  7. #52
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    These administrations dont believe there is any need for undue concern. Why they believe that will be interesting to find out.
    No they simply messed up horribly - had the media coverage been more balanced who knows how our elected leaders would have reacted to replacing a regional bulwark with te MB.

    The western press spun it as the 'arab spring' and a flowering of democracy in a region that never had any. The rise of the islamists was played down.
    You bought it hook line and sinker.

    A conspiratorial take would be that the western press does the bidding of its ruling adminstrations, OTOH the profit motive says that a story that keeps the punters coming back for more sells better.
    No the easier line is reporters fell so madly in love with the idea of skinny jeans wearing college students who like twitter and friendbook, that they ignored the bearded Taliban-ish people who made up the protests.
    Last edited by troung; 22 Jan 12, at 05:33.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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    Who's REALLY Surprised?

    I've got to wonder how anybody can be surprised that Islamists are having their way? They are better organized, amidst uneducated and conservative general populaces whom are easily swayed and cowed, and facing largely an opposition of either hardline right-wing extremist militarists or panty-waist liberals that aren't ruthless enough to organize, communicate publically and execute a viable alternative. Not so the islamists.

    So be it. This is absolutely necessary-if only to permit these islamists all the room needed to fail miserably over time. Iranians already know this, for example. Until, however, the people are as fed up with these loons as they've been with the past loons nothing shall change. When it does some decade in the future, those discredited will be swept into the dust-bin of history.

    It's their time. Over the next fifty to one hundred years we'll see what they do with the opportunity and we'll learn to adjust, accommodate or fight as required. Equally, our own societies will be tested to see which system absorbs the other. Western liberalism is being insidiously attacked now in Europe by these same islamist forces. One or the other shall win...or there will be, alternatively, a right-wing extremist reaction to the encroachment of Islam. If so, in some respects we'll have lost our own moral compass in preference to stark self-preservation.

    Long predicted by some but nothing ever stays the same. It would be interesting to view the landscape at the start of the 22nd century.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
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  9. #54
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    A conspiratorial take would be that the western press does the bidding of its ruling adminstrations, OTOH the profit motive says that a story that keeps the punters coming back for more sells better.
    I'll take the conspiratorial part,thank you very much,having some ideas how the bastards operate.And the 2 don't exclude each other.
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Either way, rise of the islamists is a moot point for western adminstrations (US, UK & France). These administrations dont believe there is any need for undue concern. Why they believe that will be interesting to find out.
    THESE administrations won't lift a finger if/when the hordes of darkness will be outside their ivory towers.No need for undue concern.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  10. #55
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    No they simply messed up horribly - had the media coverage been more balanced who knows how our elected leaders would have reacted to replacing a regional bulwark with te MB.
    If you saw it you mean to tell me your pros did not ?

    Second, you make the assertion that your adminstration bases its foreign policy on whatever happens to be fashionable in the media. Sound credible ?

    Third you elected representative do not give a damn what you think, they will willy nilly commit blood & treasure to any foreign adventure of their choosing no matter how weak the premise.

    So there are two things here..
    - what troung thinks his adminstration should do or not
    - what troung's adminstration does

    The latter ought to be what we base our thinking upon and is what we have to live with.

    What happened to all those hearings open as well as closed where the related house & senate committees (foreign, armed services & intelligence) get experts to tell them how to interpret developments around the world. What about the congressional research services your decision makers have access to.

    I offer you Libya to back up my statement. Cannot view Libya in isolation to what was happening in Egypt & Tunisia. Libya was a supporting action. Without Egypt & Tunisia there would be no intervention in Libya. Would be just like any number of Arab protests over the decades that have occcurred but were ignored in the western press.

    Hilary, Susan Rice & Heather <something> at the NSA were instrumental in influencing Obama that supporting UN resolutions 1970 & 1973 were in US interest. Libya has even fewer state institutions than Egypt does, has a much longer road to building a sustainable democracy than Egypt yet US, UK & France were all gung ho about regime change there. You just taught them their first lesson in pushing for an accountable govt, by force if necessary.

    Either your SECSTATE is smoking some real good stuff or she & her advisors knows something you don't. What do you think ?

    Will mention RoccoR does not support my line of thinking here that 'adminstration knows best'. Suppose you reach that conclusion after decades of experience and the wisdom that comes along with it. Fine, nobody is infallible but they are accountable and politicans never do anything unless they can blame it on somebody else, they are all about CYA. You don't commit a billion on a lark. These are only your elected representatives we are talking about and the US is not some tinpot banana republic.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    You bought it hook line and sinker.
    With reservations.

    I no longer subscribe to the false dichotomy that in the muslim world there is either a choice of military dictatorship or religious theocracy. Good muslims are supposed to be quiet and not take an interest in matters of state so long as their leaders are muslim but we've seen some changes to that of late. There should be no islamist parties at all in this case, isn't it. The very fact that they exist means they are willing to compromise on their core beliefs. What else will they compromise on when the lure of political power beckons. Works both ways if you have a balanced take.

    Why is it not possible for an islamist party or any other for that matter to operate within a secular framework. Only if you believe democracy as an idea is not universal and cannot work everywhere in bringing about an accountable and representative govt.

    You will say look at the results in Egypt, and the landslide the Islamists got will ensure there will never be a secular framework but the army will be the spoiler here. They certainly interfered in Turkey even in Pakistan. Yes, they will trample on the wishes of the people should they perceive a threat to the state, neither of our countries precludes a state of emergency from being declared and it actually happend in my country and yours had a civil war. Neither of these events sells us short when it comes to being committed to democratic ideals.

    That your Preisdent congratulated chief of SCAF on a job well done means he expects them to keep on doing their job as arbiter of last resort

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    No the easier line is reporters fell so madly in love with the idea of skinny jeans wearing college students who like twitter and friendbook, that they ignored the bearded Taliban-ish people who made up the protests.
    They were superficial and not very probing in their work.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 22 Jan 12, at 12:24.

  11. #56
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    I'll take the conspiratorial part,thank you very much,having some ideas how the bastards operate.And the 2 don't exclude each other.
    Thought only peole in the ME and my region believe anything so long as there is a some conspiracy involved. This is the dominant way of thinking in societies that are not transparent enough either because of secrecy or incompetent media.

    You can point to Murdoch's nexus with British politicians but what is the extent, we dont know yet other than speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    THESE administrations won't lift a finger if/when the hordes of darkness will be outside their ivory towers.No need for undue concern.
    Iraq

  12. #57
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    They were superficial and not very probing in their work.
    You ate it up.

    You will say look at the results in Egypt, and the landslide the Islamists got will ensure there will never be a secular framework but the army will be the spoiler here. They certainly interfered in Turkey even in Pakistan. Yes, they will trample on the wishes of the people should they perceive a threat to the state, neither of our countries precludes a state of emergency from being declared and it actually happend in my country and yours had a civil war. Neither of these events sells us short when it comes to being committed to democratic ideals.
    The army has no real ideology to support their political control and are a bunch of dolts out to protect their estates - the MB will edge them out the way things are going. Each election invalidates the army more and more and their transparent attempts to not have anyone look over their shoulder while they skim from the military budget won't win over any converts.

    Second, you make the assertion that your adminstration bases its foreign policy on whatever happens to be fashionable in the media. Sound credible ?
    Yeap.

    Good muslims are supposed to be quiet and not take an interest in matters of state so long as their leaders are muslim but we've seen some changes to that of late.
    What? If you are not a member of a religion - you shouldn't discuss what they are supposed to do under said religion to follow it properly.

    . Yes, they will trample on the wishes of the people should they perceive a threat to the state, neither of our countries precludes a state of emergency from being declared and it actually happend in my country and yours had a civil war. N
    LOL - that's a coup not a state of emergency.

    I offer you Libya to back up my statement. Cannot view Libya in isolation to what was happening in Egypt & Tunisia. Libya was a supporting action. Without Egypt & Tunisia there would be no intervention in Libya. Would be just like any number of Arab protests over the decades that have occcurred but were ignored in the western press.
    We threw our diplomatic and military weight behind actual terrorists - we put Islamists into power.

    Fine, nobody is infallible but they are accountable and politicans never do anything unless they can blame it on somebody else, they are all about CYA. You don't commit a billion on a lark. These are only your elected representatives we are talking about and the US is not some tinpot banana republic.
    Despite years of failures the state department is yet to be purged like it should be of career officials.

    I no longer subscribe to the false dichotomy that in the muslim world there is either a choice of military dictatorship or religious theocracy
    LOL - but yet you keep your fingers crossed that the Egyptian army will invalidate the will of the Egyptian people.

    Either your SECSTATE is smoking some real good stuff or she & her advisors knows something you don't. What do you think ?
    They are deluded and poorly educated on the issues and got sold a bad bill of goods by snake oil salesmen. Hillary only is Sec-State because she slept with Bill at least once and because of that Obama sent her overseas to age another 4 years. They sat on their asses because of the reports of social media using teeny-boppers who wanted to be just like us - and ignored the fact the majority of the protesters sure as hell didn't agree with the liberals. Had they any knowledge on the people of the region and how they thought no way would we have rallied around this crap.
    ==========
    LOL HRW is a joke. It will be funny to watch them duck away from their MB support once they are fully in the drivers seat.

    Rights group urges West to get over Islamist aversion
    Rights group urges West to get over Islamist aversion | Reuters

    By Louis Charbonneau

    NEW YORK | Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:02am EST

    (Reuters) - Western democracies should overcome their aversion to Islamist groups that enjoy popular support in North Africa and the Middle East and encourage them to respect basic rights, Human Rights Watch said in a report on Sunday.

    HRW executive director Kenneth Roth said in the group's annual report that the past year's Arab Spring pro-democracy uprisings across the region have shown it is vital for the West to end its policy of backing "an array of Arab autocrats" in exchange for supporting Western interests.

    The West should also be more consistent in supporting pro-democracy forces in the Arab world and elsewhere, he said in HRW's 690-page report on human rights abuses worldwide.

    "The international community must ... come to terms with political Islam when it represents a majority preference," he said. "Islamist parties are genuinely popular in much of the Arab world, in part because many Arabs have come to see political Islam as the antithesis of autocratic rule."

    "Wherever Islam-inspired governments emerge, the international community should focus on encouraging, and if need be pressuring, them to respect basic rights - just as the Christian-labeled parties and governments of Europe are expected to do," he said in the introduction to the report.

    He added that the international community "should adopt a more principled approach to the region than in the past. That would involve, foremost, clearly siding with democratic reformers even at the expense of abandoning autocratic friends."

    Islamist blocs have emerged as major political forces in both Tunisia and Egypt.

    HRW praised the United States and European Union for their tough stance on the late Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's brutal crackdown on protesters, which eventually led to a U.N. Security Council authorization for military action to protect civilians.

    The NATO intervention in Libya's civil war led to Gaddafi's ouster and death at the hands of rebel forces.

    After initially hesitating over Syria, Roth said the United States and EU imposed sanctions on President Bashar al-Assad's government for a crackdown on pro-democratic demonstrators that has killed at least 5,000 civilians, according to U.N. figures.

    "Elsewhere, however, the Western approach to the region's uprisings has been more tentative and uncertain," Roth said.

    AU: 'DICTATOR'S SUPPORT CLUB'

    HRW said Washington was reluctant to abandon Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak, seen as key to maintaining regional stability and peace with Israel, until his ouster was a foregone conclusion. It then hesitated to press Egypt's ruling military council to hand power over to an elected civilian government.

    France was equally reluctant in Tunisia, Roth said.

    "Similarly, Western governments imposed no meaningful consequences for killing protesters on the government of Yemen's President Ali Abdullah Saleh, whom they viewed as a defense against al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula," he said.

    They also failed to take a strong stance against Bahrain, partly out of "deference to Saudi Arabia," which dislikes the idea of a democracy near its shore and worries that Iran is meddling in the Shia-majority nation of Bahrain, Roth said.

    Western democracies "said little when monarchies have taken anti-democratic actions, such as the adoption of new repressive laws in Saudi Arabia and the imprisonment of five democracy activists in the United Arab Emirates," he said.

    The Arab League has also been inconsistent. Even worse has been the African Union, which he called "shamefully complacent."

    "Ostensibly founded to promote democracy, it has acted like a dictator's support club, siding with whichever government happens to be in power regardless of its conduct," he said.

    "As the revolutions proceeded in Tunisia, Egypt, and Libya the AU was at best irrelevant, at worst unhelpful."

    Roth also criticized Russia and China, which vetoed a European-drafted U.N. Security Council resolution on Syria in October that would have condemned the crackdown on pro-democracy protesters and threatened Damascus with possible sanctions.

    Moscow's and Beijing's "partners in indifference" on Syria were Brazil, India and South Africa, which along with Russia and China comprise the powerful BRICS emerging-market bloc.

    (Editing by Vicki Allen)
    Last edited by troung; 23 Jan 12, at 04:14.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  13. #58

    Military Professional
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    "...They sat on their asses because of the reports of social media using teeny-boppers who wanted to be just like us - and ignored the fact the majority of the protesters sure as hell didn't agree with the liberals..."

    Wholly accurate. There is no moderate middle ground here. That's been long-silenced in the mid-east. Lot of yapping but, when things get serious and the gloves come off, the panty-waists melt like butter in a hot skillet. Not so the far extremes. They FIGHT. And so that's where the struggle will be defined until somebody with ballz and a plan figures how to raise a voice that won't get shot off or stomped down.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

  14. #59
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    Too late to call a mulligan?
    Egypt lawmakers call for balance of power

    Parties wary of muslim brotherhood’s powerful presence in the new parliament

    By Habiba Abdel Aziz, Community Journalist
    Published: 23:29 January 22, 2012

    gulfnews : Egypt lawmakers call for balance of power

    Dubai: On January 23, the Egyptian parliament, having gone through three electoral phases, will meet for its first session earlier than planned at the behest of Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, just two days before the anniversary of the popular uprising.

    The mechanics of the upcoming parliament cannot on it’s own predict Egypt’s future during those six months. Gulf News spoke with members of the Egyptian Parliament, representing different parties, who addressed the key points surrounding the process and the people behind it.

    Expectations

    Esaam Sultan, vice chairman of the Al Wasat Party and parliament member, believes that the parliament can accomplish a great deal in six months with regard to avenging those who were injured and honouring the dead. Next on their list of priorities is meeting the demands of the revolution and writing a constitution that unites all political parties.

    The Al Wasat Party, according to Sultan, believes a balance must exist between the parliament and Egypt’s future president, so that neither camps can overpower the other.

    On the other hand, Dr Mohammed Al Beltagy, secretary-general of the Freedom and Justice Party, said that this upcoming phase is all about transition: “I’m hoping we transition into the post-revolution phase with ease, where the parliament has both judicial and legislative power.”

    Imaad Gad, a political analyst with Al Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies, was in disagreement: “It is going to depend on the procedural session, where the jobs and positions are distributed fairly.”
    Amin Eskander, founding member of Al Karama Party, agreed with his fellow Parliament member on this point.

    According to Hosni Hafez, the media spokesperson of Al Wafed Party, if all parties consider Egypt as their “number one priority”, they shouldn’t disagree on the best way to proceed with a much-needed peaceful transition.

    When asked about the presidential hopeful the party will consider backing, Sultan, and Al Beltagy said all candidates stood a good chance to win at this point.

    For Gad, Amr Mousa, former Secretary-General of the Arab League, had the best shot, unless former minister of information Mansour Hassan decided to nominate himself.

    Al Wafed Party, represented by Hafez, is yet to announce its candidate, while Eskandar believes that Hamdeen Sabahi, currently the leader of the Dignity Party, should become president given his long history of fighting governmental corruption and oppression, as well as the projects he founded to help elevate the living standards of the poor.

    Muslim Brotherhood

    Like all other political parties and activists on the scene, Al Wasat Party had it’s own outlook on the role the Muslim Brotherhood played throughout the past year.

    Sultan told Gulf News: “The Muslim Brotherhood played an effective role, but they also had their failings. On the one hand their participation in the revolution is one of the reasons why the protesters were able to topple the regime. On the other hand, the elections witnessed violations on their part, and some of their statements were misplaced. I recall one of their speakers suggesting the families of the killed should receive money and drop the case they filed against Hosni Mubarak and Habib Al Adly.”

    Al Beltagy said: “The stands the Muslim Brotherhood made throughout the past year were decided on good faith. Yes we made mistakes, but it’s bound to change once we’ve realised that some of the decisions we made were not well thought through. Organisations are bound to make mistakes, and hold themselves accountable for them.”

    Gad had a different take on the matter: “The Muslim Brotherhood were not with the revolution until January 28, but then they sat down with Omar Sulaiman before the ousting of Mubarak and then with the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF) post the revolution and secretly came to agreements that best suited them.”

    Eskandar agreed with Gad. He said: “I was hoping the majority elected showed more maturity and responsibility. This parliament was supposed to represent the revolution and reflect the new Egypt the people were hoping for. The Muslim Brotherhood did leave the people of Tahrir at a critical hour, the organisation not being present in the streets weakened the revolution.”

    “This parliament, which people took to calling the ‘revolution’s parliament’, has only six female representatives and six Christian members - both are a part of this country as much as everyone else, both took part and came out in droves to support the revolution, both bled for this country and yet neither are properly represented in the parliament.”

    Islamists’ presence

    Sultan addressed the issue of a dominant Islamist presence in the parliament and it’s affect on people’s daily lives.

    He said: “No one can silence the voice and the demands of the people, and no one can control the parliament regardless of them being a majority. As for their dealings with SCAF there are no secrets and this point, we can’t really say how the Freedom and Justice Party as well as Al Nour party will handle SCAF.”

    Al Beltagy believes that to speak of Egypt’s future is to speak of the Freedom and Justice Party’s plans to accomplish just that - a free and democratic country.

    He said: “We’re speaking of democratic Egypt that wishes to grant it’s people freedom, justice, and security. A country where citizens freely speak their mind. It’s a decades-long dream, and now that we’re in a place that guarantees that we accomplish that, that’s exactly what we’re aiming to accomplish.”

    Gad was not as optimistic. He said: “It depends on the constitution, and the fact is, personal freedom is protected by the law. What the people feared was how far Al Nour party is willing to go, but given that their union with the Freedom and Justice Party failed, and the fact is that the Freedom and Justice party is seeking union with other liberal parties, I’d say that, that concern is unfounded.”

    Hafez has personally met with the youth of Al Nour and the Freedom and Justice Party and said that they left a positive impression.

    He said: “I haven’t sensed any selfishness in the youth belonging to either party. Both parties wish to accomplish something great for the country.”

    Eskander warned that the Muslim Brotherhood has to tread carefully. He said: “Given the fact that they pulled out from the streets and focused on the elections, this is not a bad thing. The problem is that in countless instances, they completely disregarded the common man for what they believed is best, and if they continue to do so, they will create a gap of communication that is not easily crossed.”

    SCAF

    A few days from now, the people will again take to the streets and while some will support the SCAF, others will stand against it. The candidates stated their opinions on the matter.

    According to Al Beltagy, the Muslim Brotherhood’s ties with SCAF ends with the presidential elections.

    He said: “With a president in office, they will have to hand over power completely and leave the Egyptian political scene for it’s people. My main concern is the people - they’re the ones to decide what happens, the will of the people toppled over three governments in one year. No one expected the people to be able to force their way through. I believe in our people and their ability to carve out this country’s future at all costs.”

    Hafez agreed: “If SCAF handed over power to the parliament now, how will we secure the country until the presidential elections? We have a deadline, and if all parties maintain it, we will cross this transitional period as smoothly as we can.”



    Agreement on roles and duties

    During the first session, the parliament is expected to come to an agreement with regard to the roles and duties certain members are expected to perform, and a parliament head will be elected along with his two deputies.

    Next, the parliament is to put together the constituent assembly, whose sole purpose is write the new constitution. The assembly will be made out of a 100 members from all walks of life, with some belonging to political parties and others to unions.

    Last but not least, the parliament will have to set down the rules and guidelines that will govern the upcoming presidential elections, starting with the qualifications of the presidential hopefuls and ending with the means by which the people will elect their candidate.

    Once the rules are in place, the presidential nominations will be officially announced on April 15. The elections will take place on June 10 and a president will be announced on June 27.
    Last edited by troung; 23 Jan 12, at 01:16.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  15. #60
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    The army has no real ideology to support their political control and are a bunch of dolts out to protect their estates - the MB will edge them out the way things are going. Each election invalidates the army more and more and their transparent attempts to not have anyone look over their shoulder while they skim from the military budget won't win over any converts.
    Can i quote on this in the future when we can better see how the chips fall ?

    You are stating the army will move aside and let the civvies rule. Army has stated that they will do just that once the elections are over. We will see.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Yeap.
    How about turning it on its head. The administration uses the media as an instrument of its foreign policy. Media needs the adminstration more than the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    What? If you are not a member of a religion - you shouldn't discuss what they are supposed to do under said religion to follow it properly.
    Tell that to the Brit prof from Oxford whose Carnegie report states it, linked to earlier.

    Note that this is just the strict Islamist view, might not have been clear in my comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    LOL - that's a coup not a state of emergency.
    Regardless, its trampling on the peoples wishes.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    We threw our diplomatic and military weight behind actual terrorists - we put Islamists into power.
    The question is to understand why. See my next post

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Despite years of failures the state department is yet to be purged like it should be of career officials.
    What about the argument that career people are more invested in their job over temps.

    Career army officers over contractors / mercenaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    LOL - but yet you keep your fingers crossed that the Egyptian army will invalidate the will of the Egyptian people.
    As a last resort.

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    They are deluded and poorly educated on the issues and got sold a bad bill of goods by snake oil salesmen. Hillary only is Sec-State because she slept with Bill at least once and because of that Obama sent her overseas to age another 4 years. They sat on their asses because of the reports of social media using teeny-boppers who wanted to be just like us - and ignored the fact the majority of the protesters sure as hell didn't agree with the liberals. Had they any knowledge on the people of the region and how they thought no way would we have rallied around this crap.
    ==========
    LOL HRW is a joke. It will be funny to watch them duck away from their MB support once they are fully in the drivers seat.
    Might not have agreed with the liberals but were unanimous that their leader should go and he did. That's something new in that part of the world. Usually the protesters get mowed down with whatever and it gets silenced & forgotten.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Jan 12, at 18:08.

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