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Thread: The Aboriginal Problem - Attawapiskat and the world

  1. #16
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    It is really more a matter of property rights than race. If you live on another tribe's land it is thiers to decide who works upon it. The fact that you were raised thier is irrelevnt, it isn't yours. Re lying to get a job,understating your qualifications is not a safety risk.
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  2. #17
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    They don't own the land.

    They also don't distribute the wealth evenly. The Chief and his immediate family and friends gain the most filtering down. Just like in West Australia and the aboriginals in the Pilbura. Then you also have disputes over who thinks they own the land. The fight over crown land and which tribe owns what. It's a massive clusterfuck of bullshit.

    http://aptn.ca/pages/news/2010/10/05...ndian-affairs/

    The above is not isolated.

    There is a fight in the Pilbura over mining deals right now on such an issue where one tribe got a massive payout and another tribe at a later date steps in saying the deal was not right because the former tribe didn't own that land.

    If you want to get right down to it none of them own any of the land. If we go back to their traditional way of life they are nomadic ESPECIALLY here in the arctic. They own nothing and just follow the food. In Canada that means multiple tribes following the cariboo herds on the migration route.

    Either way the laws put in place are discriminatory. If a business owns (for arguments sake) a large tract of land and require a large work force your view says that they should be able to hire anyone they want or do not want. In your line of thinking I for example can hire white men only excluding all others because I own it even if it goes against the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

    Mobility Rights

    Mobility of citizens

    6. (1) Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada.

    Rights to move and gain livelihood

    (2) Every citizen of Canada and every person who has the status of a permanent resident of Canada has the right

    (a) to move to and take up residence in any province; and

    (b) to pursue the gaining of a livelihood in any province.

    Limitation

    (3) The rights specified in subsection (2) are subject to

    (a) any laws or practices of general application in force in a province other than those that discriminate among persons primarily on the basis of province of present or previous residence; and

    (b) any laws providing for reasonable residency requirements as a qualification for the receipt of publicly provided social services.

    Affirmative action programs

    (4) Subsections (2) and (3) do not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration in a province of conditions of individuals in that province who are socially or economically disadvantaged if the rate of employment in that province is below the rate of employment in Canada.




    The last bit is the final nail. Unemployment is not higher in the NWT than the rest of Canada.


    Equality Rights

    Equality before and under law and equal protection and benefit of law

    15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

    Affirmative action programs

    (2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.(84)



    According to this information aboriginals would not even be a minority when you break down all the races that live here.

    The Basics

    The Northwest Territories, covering a large land area in the North of Canada, is the second largest of the three territories of Canada, and situated at the east of the Yukon. As a territory rather than a province, the Federal government has greater control over the territory’s affairs. The Northwest Territories has a population approaching 43,000, almost half of which are Aboriginal. The largest urban centre and capital is Yellowknife with over 20,000 people.


    http://www.canadavisa.com/about-the-...rritories.html




    End result the hiring process for people is both racist and against our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.


    http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/charter/


    Australia has a similar charter what it doesn't have is illegal hiring practices.

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/c...fb20012005424/
    Last edited by Repatriated Canuck; 05 Dec 11, at 01:18.
    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    College students are very, very, very dumb. But that's what you get when the government subsidizes children to sit in the middle of a corn field to drink alcohol and fuck.

  3. #18
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    What a load of rubbish, those tribes have defined territories and that makes it their land. Sure there may be arguments between them about who owned what and how the benefits are distributed, but that is between them and is not a justification for non-indigenous people to say "oh well, we'll take it".

    The justification that because they they didn't develop the land that they don't own it is also intellectually corrupt. How do you know that if the settlers hadn't come to these countries that the native inhabitants wouldn't have eventually developed to a stage where they settled and made use of those resources? I'll answer for you, you don't and in any case it doesn't matter, if they just wanted to hunt and gather on their land it is none of anybody else's business and is defiantly not an argument to justify theft.

    Your argument comparing this to a business adopting discriminatory employment practices is also intellectually corrupt. Business ownership is purely about land ownership while native title involves a question of sovereignty. Native sovereignty gives natives every right to impose discriminatory stipulations on the use of that land for their benefit, just like more broadly Canada or Australia discriminates on behalf of its own citizens in respect to employment prospects.

    The fact of the matter is that our forefathers in Canada in your case, New Zealand in my case and Australia in the case of my fellow multi-generational Australian citizens arrived in these countries and in many instances stole the land of the native tribes. In those instances we are setting things right and land rights is a vital part of the equation. The prospect of resource jobs is basically the only real employment opportunity available to many of these communities, so of course they are going to tie up jobs for their own benefit and it is their right to do so.

    As for your personal circumstances about not being able to get your preferred employment in your preferred location, well, you aren't the only person in this World not to get everything that they want when they want it. I lost my job last year and had to go back 20 years to wiping sh!tty ar$es in disability care for $22 per hour for a couple of months, until I could find something in my current skill set. It isn't a great feeling but sometimes you just have to cop it and do these things ... none of us is too good to have to do menial work or move away from home when there is nothing else available.

    At the moment you are just blaming other people for your problems, which is exactly what we are criticising many of these indigenous people for doing. Only in your case it is worse because you are a literate, capable professional person who can look after himself if you are prepared to suck up a few tough decisions. In contrast for many of the indigenous kids in those areas this is the best chance that they will ever have to get ahead.

    I'm with your wife on this, your attitude is miserable.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussiegunner View Post

    Your argument comparing this to a business adopting discriminatory employment practices is also intellectually corrupt. Business ownership is purely about land ownership while native title involves a question of sovereignty. Native sovereignty gives natives every right to impose discriminatory stipulations on the use of that land for their benefit, just like more broadly Canada or Australia discriminates on behalf of its own citizens in respect to employment prospects.
    Let me try again to get this through your head. THEY DO NOT OWN ALL THE LAND! Perhaps being from New Zealand you have no comprehension of how truly massive Canada is, it also dwarfs Australia which is also a very big country. On the land they do own they lease it out to mining companies and make a fortune to which they are entitled, it's theirs. On crown or private land they are still getting entitlements that are not theirs to have but they sure as hell scream discrimination until they get it.

    These feelings of entitlement are half the problem of native peoples. I was here first gimmie gimmie. For the community in the title as an example; if it where a non native community it would have died. Everyone would have packed up and left because there is no work. Instead everyone stays with their hand out screaming for more free money blaming others for the hole kicked in their wall.


    As for my problems. I don't really have any. I have invested wisely have three properties and no bad debt. I am also highly mobile (dual citizen) able to bail out and go to the next boom just like many miners but better than most. What sickens me is that a person who's grandparents where from here and even possibly native does not have the ability even for a fucking APPRENTICESHIP. You know a tool through education and experience to get a career enabling you to provide for a future famliy DENIED because you are the wrong colour or from the tribe with the least governmental representation.

    For some of those natives it's not even their fault that they are here in NWT. Entire tribes where taken off their land and moved up here by the governments past. Still because they are of the wrong tribe they also have issues with employment. This is far from their fault don't you think? Your reasoning says well fuck them the big tribe is entitled so screw you. My tribe and issues with my status are also far from my families fault. Governments past out East where my lineage is did their damnedest to get rid of them outright.

    Other examples are conservation issues out West. Commercial fishing is allowed at certain times of year so we don't wipe out fish stocks. Native feelings of entitlement brought them to court feeling that they should be able to commercially fish year round. Screw fish stocks and everyone else I was here first I should be able to do anything I want, you all owe me. In this part of my argument does this also mean they own international waters? Can they then go against efforts of conservationists and fish as much as they want then sell it to Japan? Even on this note I still endorse their rights to fish to feed the community. I also agree they can hunt as they please.


    I'll be the first to cheer for natives when their fight is just and right. Just like I cheered when the Mohawks had to have the army called in after they shot a cop in Quebec in efforts to stop a golf course on a burial site. I firmly believe in equality for every man woman and child and the belief that working hard should get you ahead on your own merit.

    I am far from cold hearted about every aboriginal plight of which their are many. I am cold hearted about racist policies and tribalism that discriminates based off birth.
    Last edited by Repatriated Canuck; 05 Dec 11, at 05:47.
    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    College students are very, very, very dumb. But that's what you get when the government subsidizes children to sit in the middle of a corn field to drink alcohol and fuck.

  5. #20
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    RC,

    It is entirely possible for private ownership to co-exist with traditional ownership. Under such circumstances deals are negotiated and ultimately, if an agreement is not able to be reached, arbitrated as to sharing the benefits between the traditional owners and the new owner. Traditional rights to territory that is currently privately owned, together with the principles to determine private ownership, are set out in the case Delagamuukw versus the British Columbia, 1997. You will have to google it, this computer is right click disabled.

    I don't know the specifics of the case that you are talking about as, you haven't provided any information other than your own opinions and general (and irrelevant) legal documents, but I find it very, very, very, very difficult to believe that the Attawapiskat are obtaining benefits from land that is not in their very large original, pre-settlement territory. If you can prove that this is the case then good for you.

    As for the "fairness" of it all on non-Attawapiskat, I think that if as I suspect this is occuring on their traditional lands then it is entirely fair. You raise the point of apprenticeships. If there are only so many up there to go around and a decision about who gets what, the ones who were there first and who have been dispossessed should be prioritised. These people are a nation, just like Australia or Canada or New Zealand and they have every right to ensure their own are looked after first before others - just like we do with our own citizens over foriegners. If there aren't enough jobs up there then somebody will have to pack up and leave, but the traditional owners should be the last group to have to do that, not the first.

    I do feel sorry for other Indians who have been translocated, we have similar Aboriginal communities here and they are generally the most disadvantaged. However, it is not fair to expect the Attawapiskat to have to give up their limited opportunities because of the settler's misdeeds. The translocated indians should be compensated in some other way by the rest of the Canadian community through the Government.

    I'm not really expecting any of this to make an impact on you as for whatever reason you clearly just don't like these People. That is quite apparent by the fact that on one hand you complain that they are unemployed and reliant on taxpayer funded welfare, but equally complain when they get preferential access to the few job opportunities that will get them out of that rut. It is that sort of attitude that led to the sorts of translocations that you are talking about in the first place - new arrivals wanted "incovenient" people out of the way so they just packaged them up and shipped them out.
    "There is no such thing as society" - Margaret Thatcher

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussiegunner View Post
    I do feel sorry for other Indians who have been translocated, we have similar Aboriginal communities here and they are generally the most disadvantaged. However, it is not fair to expect the Attawapiskat to have to give up their limited opportunities because of the settler's misdeeds. The translocated indians should be compensated in some other way by the rest of the Canadian community through the Government.
    Translocated into private missions, then 'slowly evaporate' from societies radar - I feel best describes it. It certainly does blow. Although, I'm not sure that our Native title allows for the purpose of mining. Im not sure if that can be determined as discriminatory per your development argument, but probably extends so far as the government wanted in the sense of native title.

    Here, you only own the surface of the land - that is that, and whatever is under it, you must provide easement to. Whether treated as independent or not.
    Ego Numquam

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussiegunner View Post
    RC,

    It is entirely possible for private ownership to co-exist with traditional ownership. Under such circumstances deals are negotiated and ultimately, if an agreement is not able to be reached, arbitrated as to sharing the benefits between the traditional owners and the new owner. Traditional rights to territory that is currently privately owned, together with the principles to determine private ownership, are set out in the case Delagamuukw versus the British Columbia, 1997. You will have to google it, this computer is right click disabled.

    I don't know the specifics of the case that you are talking about as, you haven't provided any information other than your own opinions and general (and irrelevant) legal documents, but I find it very, very, very, very difficult to believe that the Attawapiskat are obtaining benefits from land that is not in their very large original, pre-settlement territory. If you can prove that this is the case then good for you.

    As for the "fairness" of it all on non-Attawapiskat, I think that if as I suspect this is occuring on their traditional lands then it is entirely fair. You raise the point of apprenticeships. If there are only so many up there to go around and a decision about who gets what, the ones who were there first and who have been dispossessed should be prioritised. These people are a nation, just like Australia or Canada or New Zealand and they have every right to ensure their own are looked after first before others - just like we do with our own citizens over foriegners. If there aren't enough jobs up there then somebody will have to pack up and leave, but the traditional owners should be the last group to have to do that, not the first.

    I do feel sorry for other Indians who have been translocated, we have similar Aboriginal communities here and they are generally the most disadvantaged. However, it is not fair to expect the Attawapiskat to have to give up their limited opportunities because of the settler's misdeeds. The translocated indians should be compensated in some other way by the rest of the Canadian community through the Government.

    I'm not really expecting any of this to make an impact on you as for whatever reason you clearly just don't like these People. That is quite apparent by the fact that on one hand you complain that they are unemployed and reliant on taxpayer funded welfare, but equally complain when they get preferential access to the few job opportunities that will get them out of that rut. It is that sort of attitude that led to the sorts of translocations that you are talking about in the first place - new arrivals wanted "incovenient" people out of the way so they just packaged them up and shipped them out.

    I do actually like these people a great deal. Nice as hell for the most part, even the ones outside drinking and have sat drinking with them. I've even sat drinking goon with a one eyed aboriginal at a train station in WA much to the annoyance of the missus. I'm common as hell and don't care who I have a beer and laugh with.

    To be clear Attawapiskat is in Ontario, I am in the Northwest Territories. Ontario does not have legislation in place discriminating between race in employment, that's illegal.

    For land and rights there are very old treaties in place outlining land rights etc. It has been used very successfully against the Canadian government with treaties predating Canada. The British where very good at keeping records and I am happy to see any native nation win using them. These however work both ways. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

    The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is law and outline our most basic rights. These protect every single Canadian and are not meant as a pick and choose measure where convenient. They are there for fairness and to protect everyone no matter what race or religious beliefs. (Except polygamy Supreme Court told the Mormons to piss off a couple weeks ago but anyway......) I agree with you about Australia and New Zealands right to protect jobs from foreigners but the fact is the Northwest Territories are Canadian territory and the people living here are Canadian. There are treaties over land and at present there are no land disputes open to my knowledge. We are not talking about moving into native land stealing their livelihood etc. This is very simply about giving everyone a fair go in Canada.

    Translocated people do need need compensation in the financial sense. It never ever works. At first it may help with a big party and a new truck but long term they very simply need the same opportunities to work and grow to sustain themselves and their families. The chance to get out of poverty and learn how to be a parent. How to take responsibility for themselves and their property. Giving them free money and homes has just bred a people with no pride who live in squalor waiting for the next hand out with a sence of the white man owes me.



    You misunderstand the thread, this is not just the Atawapiskat thread this is a very broad topic with similarities all over Canada and the world. It does not make any sense to dislike my own heritage or people that share my ancestry. I do however, loathe people that screw over others. The Australian way of giving everyone a fair go does not appear to have rubbed off on you completely yet.

    For the Atawapiskat they have nothing of value to get them a job. No gold, oil or anything else to support them yet. Perhaps in the future they will get lucky and find some. They used to do a lot of trapping but greenies destroyed that for them. Europe has banned seal products and PETA killed the fur trade.

    For many Northern Nations they are not hard done by unless they choose that life. The lucky large ones still get their government subsidies as well as massive payouts from mining companies using their land. They also get preferential treatment for jobs all while discriminating against the smaller tribes and everyone else.


    Like I said, Canada is massive and different aboriginal people live to different standards. On sovereign land they can do what they want, it's theirs. Outside of lands treaties where signed over every single Canadian should be given a fair go.



    For the poor Attawapiskat I feel they should be moved. I know it's mean but if they can't take pride in themselves through work and education opportunities they are doomed to repeated abuse and disadvantage. I don't really see any other way for them. It's too bad that the tribalism of natives means that they only look out for their own and not the greater good of all First Nations. If you can come up with a better option I am all ears. I've changed my point of view when someone comes up with something better many times. While being pig headed is a fault of mine I'm not so arrogant to ignore a view that is better than mine and sometimes I am just wrong.

    This forum is one of those places that have changed my opinions multiple times. Saying that I am enjoying the debate even if you are driving me nuts!



    Quote Originally Posted by Chunder View Post
    Translocated into private missions, then 'slowly evaporate' from societies radar - I feel best describes it. It certainly does blow. Although, I'm not sure that our Native title allows for the purpose of mining. Im not sure if that can be determined as discriminatory per your development argument, but probably extends so far as the government wanted in the sense of native title.

    Here, you only own the surface of the land - that is that, and whatever is under it, you must provide easement to. Whether treated as independent or not.


    We have that too. If you own loads of land and find oil you will get a lot of money but certainly not Bill Gates money.
    Last edited by Repatriated Canuck; 05 Dec 11, at 17:07.
    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    College students are very, very, very dumb. But that's what you get when the government subsidizes children to sit in the middle of a corn field to drink alcohol and fuck.

  8. #23
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    Attawapiskat has kicked out federal auditor. When someone doesn't want anyone scrutinizing the books it makes me wonder what are they trying to hide.

    Instead of taking the opportunity to show all of Canada that they have indeed been screwed by the government they don't want anyone to see where all the money went. Numbers don't lie so I too want to see where it went and where the problems are occurring. It doesn't necessarily mean fraud if there has been mismanagement but there could be ways to identify where the spent money is going wrong.

    Someone somewhere is screwing someone. I would like to point out the mine 90km from this community that has poured hundreds of millions into the community.


    Someone has gotten very, very rich in Attawapiskat and most likely doesn't live there any more.



    http://www.debeerscanada.com/files_3...s_vm_attfn.pdf

    http://www.debeerscanada.com/files_3/victor-mine.php


    Since the start of construction, over $325 million in contracts have
    been awarded to solely owned or joint venture companies run by
    the community. In 2011, contracts awarded to the community total
    $51 million.
    To build capacity within the community, two training facilities have
    been constructed in the community at a combined cost of almost $2
    million, where we fly our training team in to conduct regular training
    programs with community members.




    In the statement released mentions IBA agreements. These essentially mean hire natives or lose your mining rights. Part of these agreements state that all entry level job are only open to native people of the local area.


    There are back and forth press releases between the chief and the government.


    Attawapiskat housing crisis: Comparing John Duncan's statements to Chief Theresa Spence's | News | National Post

    Duncan: “Our government has introduced important legislation that protects the rights of First Nation individuals. This includes the introduction of legislation to ensure financial transparency and accountability. We have also passed legislation that makes sure First Nations have the same human rights protection under the Canadian Human Rights Act as other Canadians. We also intend to re-introduce the Safe Drinking Water for First Nations Act.”

    Spence: “In our territory, we have a world-class diamond mine…. While [Ottawa, the provincial government and De Beers Canada ] reap the riches, my people shiver in cold shacks, and are becoming increasingly ill…. Precious diamonds from my land grace the fingers, and necklaces of Hollywood celebrities, and the mace of the Ontario legislature.”



    In their territory with a very low population someone is filthy rich and isn't sharing. Seems a theme happening too often but it's Canada's fault and we are not allowed to look into it. Give us more money then go away is the message I'm getting.


    This also shows me that I was wrong in one way about Attawapiskat. There are jobs and even the lowest of the low drop kick dumb shit job in my industry start at around 70K and to those living on reserve pay much lower tax where any other Canadian will be taxed at around %35 going up to %40 after a small raise. The tax rate has not changed in years and $70k was a rich mans wage I suppose even though today it is far from.

    I do have a right to wonder along with everyone else; where the hell is all the money? If it's not their fault no worries lets fix it and move on.

    Tax Exemptions

    http://publications.gc.ca/collection...MR/mr130-e.htm





    EDIT///


    Q&A on the news with National Chief in Canada is saying we support transparency and accountability while saying on the other hand no outside influence. I'm confused?

    He is saying some good things I support too though.


    Oh god what a mess.
    Last edited by Repatriated Canuck; 06 Dec 11, at 17:05.
    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    College students are very, very, very dumb. But that's what you get when the government subsidizes children to sit in the middle of a corn field to drink alcohol and fuck.

  9. #24
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    Gentlemen, the answer is obvious...


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    A great idea but does not work so well in the remote reserves. I know your joking but this has worked really well for some bands. It also reminds me of a great Southpark episode titled Red Mans Greed.

    The National Chief wants the people to be able to speak with one voice for the greater good for self government etc without outside influence. For small areas though they can not go without outside influence such as my tax dollar.
    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    College students are very, very, very dumb. But that's what you get when the government subsidizes children to sit in the middle of a corn field to drink alcohol and fuck.

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    I was definitely joking, mainly because I have no answer. Hunter-gatherer people are stuck in a capitalist world, and the main question is why? Why are they so unsuccessful? They are full citizens with the exact same opportunities as everybody else.

    I think their sense of community is possibly what "keeps them down" to use an overused term. There is probably pressure to NOT leave the reservation, and resentment if someone becomes too successful.

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    I've driven through the Navajo reservation in Arizona, definitely a sad place--though not as bad as other reservations I'm guessing. Most of the money they make is off of trinkets they sell in roadside shacks, and all of the homes I saw were small and not well taken care of.

    Their ancestors lived off the land (which is hot, dry, and unfarmable) but they really cant survive in a market economy with just dust and rocks. This is one of the largest reservations in the US by the way--and I saw very little usable farmland or grazeland. You cant make something out of nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chogy View Post
    I was definitely joking, mainly because I have no answer. Hunter-gatherer people are stuck in a capitalist world, and the main question is why? Why are they so unsuccessful? They are full citizens with the exact same opportunities as everybody else.

    I think their sense of community is possibly what "keeps them down" to use an overused term. There is probably pressure to NOT leave the reservation, and resentment if someone becomes too successful.
    Sir,leaving the tribe is dissension and that is the same as betrayal in the tribe.

    Being successful depends on the meaning of the term.I've no idea if the Indians are happy,but they have the choice.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chogy View Post
    I was definitely joking, mainly because I have no answer. Hunter-gatherer people are stuck in a capitalist world, and the main question is why? Why are they so unsuccessful? They are full citizens with the exact same opportunities as everybody else.

    I think their sense of community is possibly what "keeps them down" to use an overused term. There is probably pressure to NOT leave the reservation, and resentment if someone becomes too successful.

    Australian aboriginals have that problem in many circumstances. If one of them gets a good job they are expected to share all the money they are making. Doesn't leave much incentive to go back to that shit hold dusty mine and do 12 hours days for weeks on end does it.

    One of my buddies explained it to me. He's aboriginal nice dude but a mad man on the drink!
    Last edited by Repatriated Canuck; 07 Dec 11, at 00:21.
    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    College students are very, very, very dumb. But that's what you get when the government subsidizes children to sit in the middle of a corn field to drink alcohol and fuck.

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    Attawapiskat to pay 3rd-party manager $1,300 a day - Canada - CBC News


    While I agree completely that a 3rd party should be looking into the finance of Attawapiskat to see where the money has all gone but $1300 a day paid by them is retarded! The government should foot the bill if they want to force it in place. In this part of the dispute I'm on side with the community.


    What a bloody mess. Let's get to the cause of the issue and fix it not piss everyone off more. If there is mismanagement of funds and the government official finds it good it can be fixed on the other side if no wrong doings are found the natives get to say I told you so. Either way if it's being forced it should be outside their allocation of money......
    Last edited by Repatriated Canuck; 08 Dec 11, at 20:58.
    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    College students are very, very, very dumb. But that's what you get when the government subsidizes children to sit in the middle of a corn field to drink alcohol and fuck.

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