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Has Large Scale Arty in the US Military become irrelevant?

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  • #31
    Pity there isn't really much information on Rheinmetall's Mortar Combat System in English available, especially detail-wise. It's just what you're looking for pretty much. IOC with the Bundeswehr next year btw. Guided round development for it still taking a while.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Doktor View Post

      Pardon my ignorance, but it's nonsense to drop $50k (assuming every shot is a hit) over tents or barracks.
      If there is need I'll throw millions over tents and barracks.No offense,but corporate logic leads to battlefield failure.Bussinessmen want efficiency.Warriors need effectivness.
      Those who know don't speak
      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Mihais View Post
        If there is need I'll throw millions over tents and barracks.No offense,but corporate logic leads to battlefield failure.Bussinessmen want efficiency.Warriors need effectivness.
        Would be cheaper to bribe the insurgents to go home :)

        Point taken.
        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
          Tanks and heavy artillery can be reserved for the battlefields of Europe and Africa. They have no place in jungle warfare. The artillery in this theater flies, the light mortar and machine guns, the rifle, the tommygun, the grenade and knife are the weapons carried by men who fly to war, jump in parachutes, are carried by gliders and who land from air transports on grounds which air engineers have prepared.[/I]
          the PTO is not my strong field, but I was under the impression that another argument against the use of heavy artillery was this job (supposedly) was also covered by the fleet with bombardments from the sea.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
            the PTO is not my strong field, but I was under the impression that another argument against the use of heavy artillery was this job (supposedly) was also covered by the fleet with bombardments from the sea.
            At this stage of the war, particularly in the SW Pacific, the US was stretched thin. There were almost no NGFS assets available. In fact the Army forces were undertrained and resourced. The 32 ID was a National Guard division which was poorly trained. MacArthur was forcing the issue with Washington by starting the attack before the resources were really there. SWPAC and the CBI were at the bottom of the barrel for anything. Remember this was occurring as the same time as North Africa and Guadalcanal. So there were no ships available.

            Also NGFS comes from weapons which are rifles and not gun/howitzers. Ships guns are very accurate in terms of deflection but can be long or short very easily due to it's shallow angle. A gun/howitzer is able to give high angle plunging fire which allows the forward observer to walk the shells in very accurately.
            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
            Mark Twain

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Mihais View Post
              If there is need I'll throw millions over tents and barracks.No offense,but corporate logic leads to battlefield failure.Bussinessmen want efficiency.Warriors need effectivness.

              Totally agree with the comment. However that is a target where you would use HE VT & HE PD rather than an Excaliber round. But if you want to hit one end of one building different story.
              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
              Mark Twain

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              • #37
                Yes Sir.I wouldn't use an Excalibur anyway.The closest I'll be to one would be in a weapon show.

                It's not Dok's fault,but it happens that I have a problem with too much corporatism in this particular ''bussiness''.The amount of corporate behaviour and language at institutional level borders on the obscene these days.Since you across the pond started the trend it has disseminated to the very borders of civilization The fact that even that ''ethos'' is an empty suit is the cherry on the cake.
                I probably heard and read the word ''manager'' at least 5 times more than the word ''leader''.As for killing people,that's almost blasphemy .Me being angry,over.
                Those who know don't speak
                He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                • #38
                  Mihais,

                  As one of the advantages of the arty vs AF many of the professionals here said is it is cheaper. I didn't bring that argument here. I know it is not the only advantage around, but it is there and makes sense.

                  So, if you look at only what is cheaper, it is non sense to hit a tent with $1mil worth of ammo, otherwise you'd hit it from a plane, or a helo - that would be airborn 24/7.

                  Oh, and I'd never call an officer a "manager". Leader or commander is also what I wouldn't use as there is someone above. Officer is fine.

                  Just to make it clear.
                  Last edited by Doktor; 19 Nov 11,, 22:49.
                  No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                  To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                  • #39
                    Not talking about you,but the institution(s).

                    I'm not advocating waste.But there is a fine line between economy of forces as a general principle of war and economy as a science.
                    Those who know don't speak
                    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                      Not talking about you,but the institution(s).

                      I'm not advocating waste.But there is a fine line between economy of forces as a general principle of war and economy as a science.

                      Do not disagree with the sentiment....however I will spend a $1,000,000,000 to keep from spending one soldiers life. I believe that is the norm amongst the uniformed profession of arms. But as for the big defense firms, not so much.
                      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                      Mark Twain

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                      • #41
                        I see that AR has been hanging out at the Holiday Inn Express again

                        Not bad for a grunt.

                        One of the things that hasn't been discussed is flexibility.

                        Way back in the day, I would look at the Air Tasking Order (ATO) for the day. That thing is cast in stone.

                        Arty support is 24/7. I might get a bird on station for 30 min. And not at the time of my choosing. I also don't get to pick and choose the loadout of the bird.

                        If the ATO says that I have 4 F-15Es that each have 2 LGBs each and 6 Rockeye that will be on station from 1400-1430. Then thats when I have air support.
                        Lets hope the enemy cooperates.

                        The "CAS Stack" concept worked around that during Desert Storm but I am still stuck with whats on the planes.

                        I can get on the hooks with my DS arty Battery and have rounds down range in 2 min. Any time of the day or night. There isn't enough bombtrucks in the USAF,US Navy and USMC to provide that type of coverage.

                        Second problem is the loadout. They cannot change bullets in midair. So depending on the situation, I will get limited effect on target.

                        Those LGBs will be great, on a clear day, against individual bunkers and mortar/Crew Served positions. But they are almost useless against troops or a convoy of vehicles. In mountainous terrain you are also limited by intervening crest. Lets hope those targets are not in a deep valley

                        Ground burst bombs make big holes but most of the fragments go up, away from the troops you are trying to kill. Rockeye are great for exposed troops/convoys on flat terrain. But they have a high dud rate in the mountains and they are not wind corrected. Dropped from high up, or in windy areas they can, and will drift off target. Those birds have a limited supply of ammo for me to play with. Every round has to count. One rockeye has a little less ICM that 3 155 DPICM rounds. I/ FDC can tailor the DPICM rounds to function where they will have the most effect on the target.

                        HE/VT or HE/Ti will dig those troops out, or kill them in their trenches. Not an option when using air. Neither is WP or a whole list of shell/fuze combos that I can have within minutes from the arty battery.

                        Air is an inflexible tool that I have to make work regardless of what the enemy does. I can tailor the arty mission to the enemy's actions or the Commanders Intent. I use to tell Bn Commanders that Artys unofficial nickname was "Semper Gumby" (Always Flexible).

                        Air is a good to have Tactical asset. Arty is a Got to Have asset.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                          Totally agree with the comment. However that is a target where you would use HE VT & HE PD rather than an Excaliber round.
                          Don't forget the WP. A little "Shake and bake" is never a bad thing.:Dancing-Banana:

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                          • #43
                            Can I just throw 2 points in favour of artillery?
                            -planes can be heard/seen before they shoot, even at long ranges; how long before it hits can a shell be heard?
                            -planes can be shot down;

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                              -planes can be heard/seen before they shoot, even at long ranges; how long before it hits can a shell be heard?
                              IIRC, most arty rounds are supersonic, or close to it, on the way down; so you wouldn't hear the first round until AFTER it detonates at ground level.
                              "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                              • #45
                                I hope after the nice target illumination provided by A.R. and GunGrape this discussion is ended if not closed.

                                End of Mission. Myths dispersed. Target destroyed. Record as target AA0001, out.
                                "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                                "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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