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Thread: Neonazi Terrorism in Germany

  1. #16
    Idiot Mode [ON] OFF Senior Contributor YellowFever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    which ones? The Woman arrested? The two who killed themselves?
    I hope you were trying to be funny....but then again, I never know with you.

  2. #17
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    I think he's referring to the dude who shot the boxer and ended her career and walked away with a 6 year prison sentence
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    I'm not aware that this is being focusses on 'to the exclusion' of other crimes - Tarek & Kato might know.
    It's taken as a focus in so far as it provides the necessary impact to start a rethinking on how to handle right-wing extremists.

    Quote Originally Posted by USSWisconsin View Post
    What kind of penalty would these criminals face if caught?

    I am curious if they would be incarerated longer for a crime like this, as compared to the short German sentances discussed in other threads.
    Difficult to say since the two who likely committed the murders killed themselves. Both, if proven to have perpetrated the murders, would have faced life in prison, i.e. minimum 15-20 years before a first sentence review. The four others connected to this case are to my knowledge facing charges for forming or supporting a terrorist group. In theory 10 years maximum plus permanent house arrest afterwards.
    German courts aren't hesitant to give maximum sentences to murderers acting out in hate crimes btw, both for adults (life) and youths (10 years).

  4. #19
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    It's taken as a focus in so far as it provides the necessary impact to start a rethinking on how to handle right-wing extremists.
    In fewer words,more repression.
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  5. #20
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    It's taken as a focus in so far as it provides the necessary impact to start a rethinking on how to handle right-wing extremists.
    What has the strategy been thus far? The article Doktor posted suggested a level of denial at the extent of right wing violence, though that could depend on how you choose to set out definitions. I have also heard it mentioned that there has been a much heavier emphasis on left wing & Islamic groups. There was also a hint of friends in high places. Have investigations of right wing groups been underresourced? Has there been an assumption, perhaps even self-deception, that right wing terror was less of an issue? Are there sympatheric individuals or even groups in governmetn or even the security apparatus who have been helping out? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.


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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    I have also heard it mentioned that there has been a much heavier emphasis on left wing & Islamic groups. Have investigations of right wing groups been underresourced?
    Post 9/11 the Verfassungsschutz domestic intelligence services of the 16 German states built up departments specifically for Islamic groups. Since there has been a political focus on this since then these departments continued to grow, at the expense of other departments. Staff and material was reshifted to these new departments, which now usually equal those departments for all other extremists combined in size. There isn't really any similar emphasis on left-wing extremism - that was mostly torn down after the RAF dissolved in 1998.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Has there been an assumption, perhaps even self-deception, that right wing terror was less of an issue?
    The problem is that on the right-wing edge we're mostly dealing with individuals and only a couple dozen to a couple hundred more or less harmless localized groups with a high amount of flux to the general population. There was a wave of right-wing terrorism in the early 90s that already stemmed from this more individual side - a couple hundred individual attacks on foreigners, asylum seeker barracks being set on fire, homeless people being beaten to death by skinheads, things like that. By the late 90s it was thought that this was mostly under control again, partially owing to a crackdown against the localized groups. The problem with that is that some of these groups contained some individuals who then went underground; the members of the terrorist cell in the OP are among these.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    What has the strategy been thus far?
    The strategy depends on the state, and is usually rather haphazard. In theory domestic intelligence sniffs out offending perps, then does the secret handshake with the police to arrest them.

    In most cases domestic intelligence has its fingers and feelers deep in such groups, with the theoretical target of finding ring leaders and so on. Often flanked by state-sponsored groups going in to isolate and separate "harmless" members of right-wing groups.
    The fingers are in deep enough that for example a couple years ago the Supreme Court denied outlawing a nazi party because 15% of the leaders of the party at state and federal level were controlled by domestic intelligence. There's currently the assumption that at least two different state domestic intelligence agencies had informants close to the terrorist cell, trying to find where the main group was hiding. There's also been the accusation that one domestic intelligence agent or informer was suspiciously close at hand at at least six of the assassinations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Are there sympatheric individuals or even groups in governmetn or even the security apparatus who have been helping out?
    There are people who are at the very least suspicious of this. The problem right now is that basically everyone's accusing each other. It's relatively well-known that there are for example some state police forces, or some police units, that are a haven for right-wingers for example - in particular in East Germany. At the same time the practice of domestic intelligence to actually pump money into such groups in order to get stable informants isn't exactly kosher either. And the state governments are usually viper nests of corruption and lobbyism anyway.

  7. #22
    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    In fewer words,more repression.
    Precisely. It's far easier to enact 'measures' if the purported target is 'right wing/nazi' terrorists as opposed to those with other labels. The fact those 'others' can be swept up with the same measures can then be 'incidental'.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    In fewer words,more repression.
    Fed Interior Minister is currently thinking about a federal Terror Defense Center, a federal domestic terrorist database, and a far longer retention time for data at domestic intelligence on anyone connected with or suspicious of any extremism (currently limited to 5 years).

    So yeah, more repression.

  9. #24
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
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    IMO, Far too many Laws that have ballooned the "gray" area far beyond reason.

    A major flaw of these generations and ours is that they no longer see in black and white (right and wrong), all they see is a rather large expanding "gray area" that is riddled with bullshit excuses, plea deals, cop outs, circumstances and technicalities. We wonder why society is the way it is, thats because we have allowed it. Prisons are overloaded with "politcal pets" that instead of giving them the punishment they really deserve, they get to become pets of the state and bleed the taxpayers unendlessly. Many deserve a box and a bullet, not cable TV etc etc etc.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 20 Nov 11, at 21:25.
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  10. #25
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    IMO, Far too many Laws that have ballooned the "gray" area far beyond reason.

    A major flaw of these generations and ours is that they no longer see in black and white (right and wrong), all they see is a rather large expanding "gray area" that is riddled with bullshit excuses, plea deals, cop outs, circumstances and technicalities. We wonder why society is the way it is, thats because we have allowed it. Prisons are overloaded with "politcal pets" that instead of giving them the punishment they really deserve, they get to become pets of the state and bleed the taxpayers unendlessly. Many deserve a box and a bullet, not cable TV etc etc etc.
    They're also full of people there for political reasons - like politicians wanting to look 'tough' on drugs. Not a one way street. Want to save lives & probably some money? Legalize marijuana, tax it like alcohol & fill the space in the prisons with anyone caught twice exceeding the speed limit by more than 15kmph. Six months should do nicely. Watch the road toll & costs associated wiht crashes plummet. There are plenty of 'political pets' when it comes to administering justice DN, its just that we rarely notice when we ourselves are among them.


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  11. #26
    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    which ones? The Woman arrested? The two who killed themselves?
    I didnt read it carefully, but I had the impression they were concerned about further incidents:

    There is no doubt this represents a new dimension of far-right violence which is why federal prosecutors are investigating accusations of formation of a terrorist organisation," Friedrich said.
    Kato basically answered my question (Thank You), I am glad to hear the German legal system would handle this more severely than the guy who shot his step daughter.
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  12. #27
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    Police added two more supporters to the suspect list on Friday, domestic intelligence in Thuringia currently estimates about 20 members/supporters for the cell.

    The killing of the police officer is currently investigated as another possible targeted investigation; the officer was from Thuringia herself, and had a (non-amiable) personal connection to the woman arrested.

  13. #28
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    They're also full of people there for political reasons - like politicians wanting to look 'tough' on drugs. Not a one way street. Want to save lives & probably some money? Legalize marijuana, tax it like alcohol & fill the space in the prisons with anyone caught twice exceeding the speed limit by more than 15kmph. Six months should do nicely. Watch the road toll & costs associated wiht crashes plummet. There are plenty of 'political pets' when it comes to administering justice DN, its just that we rarely notice when we ourselves are among them.
    IMO, I dont think legalizing drugs is the answer. The problem is you have too many people that commit the heinous crimes. Murder, shootings that leave the inncocent maimed/crippled for life, kidnapping/rape etc. These are the ones that a standard should be set for. Start with Manson and take them on a case by case basis.Cold blooded murderers should be first to get the bullet. If you want to lower the wasted cash there are several instances that could be used as a starter. Drug testing for welfare would be a start. Those that get put into prison should pay the full cost of keeping them there not the taxpayer. And on the other hand, politicians need to create jobs to support these people. There are plenty of people though that ride the state/governments paycheck for far too long. Bending the rules has become an artform these days. End it. One viscious circle.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 21 Nov 11, at 20:20.
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  14. #29
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Damn,not even Nazis aren't sacred anymore.As a manifestation of the Devil himself on Earth,of course.
    Why do we have to return always to welfare recipients and junkies?Just bring homos and the opinion of reps and dems on taxes, to have the full spectrum.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  15. #30
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    IMO, I dont think legalizing drugs is the answer. The problem is you have too many people that commit the heinous crimes. Murder, shootings that leave the inncocent maimed/crippled for life, kidnapping/rape etc. These are the ones that a standard should be set for. Start with Manson and take them on a case by case basis.Cold blooded murderers should be first to get the bullet. If you want to lower the wasted cash there are several instances that could be used as a starter. Drug testing for welfare would be a start. Those that get put into prison should pay the full cost of keeping them there not the taxpayer. And on the other hand, politicians need to create jobs to support these people. There are plenty of people though that ride the state/governments paycheck for far too long. Bending the rules has become an artform these days. End it. One viscious circle.
    Didn't say legalize all drugs DN, just dope. You also dodged the issue of speeding. I live in an area riddled wiht heroin, but the only times my life has been under threat (twice) were as a result of people breaking the law in a car (one speeding & crossing onto our side of the road & hitting our car head on, the other someone running a red light while I was crossing & hitting me hard enough to throw me several metres in the air & break 3 ribs). Car drivers do far more damage to society every year than dope smokers, welfare cheats & terrorists all rolled into one. Why not treat them with a fraction the harshness we reserve for someone who sells a little weed? The answer is obvious - if we treated law breaking drivers like the life threatening criminals they are, rather than giving them slap on the wrist, the scream would be so loud that no politician could stand it. People always find an excuse for their own rule bending & a reason why it isn't worthy of the sort of punishment 'real criminals' should get. My point is that people never see themselves as 'political pets', even when thay clearly are.


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