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  • #16
    Originally posted by astralis View Post
    dreadnought,



    not sure what abbas CAN do about hamas. recall the PA lost that particular civil war with hamas. for that matter, even the israelis couldn't clean out hamas when they had the chance.
    In that case then why should the Israeli's feel any commitment to this Peace process knowing the attacks wont stop but will indeed get much closer and their citizens killed?

    What needs to be done IMO, is for Hamas's supporters and weapons suppliers to be "unpluged". They are terrorists after all and we all know from recent and past history there is only one way to deal with terrorists. There is no political cure for stupidity nor hatred.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

    Comment


    • #17
      dread,

      In that case then why should the Israeli's feel any commitment to this Peace process knowing the attacks wont stop but will indeed get much closer and their citizens killed?
      doesn't make much sense to me. this is clearly the PA talking, and under Abbas, what they CAN do, they have. as the saletan piece points out:

      In 2001 and 2002, more than 3,500 Israeli civilians were wounded in terror attacks, according to official Israeli data. After that, the tally of wounded fell by half almost every year. By 2007, it was down to 110. In 2002, suicide terror attacks killed 220 Israelis. By 2004, that number was down to 55. By 2007, it had fallen to three. So far in 2011, Israel has reported 12 deaths in Israeli territory from Palestinian violence. Of these, virtually all were traced to militants from Gaza, which Hamas controls. The data show no known fatal terror attacks in Israel from the Abbas-controlled West Bank.
      so i have no issue if israel has a problem with talking to hamas (which is not even the most extreme of the Gaza crew).

      what is clear to me, though, is that israel has little interest in negotiating with abbas, precisely because abbas is doing everything israel wants already.

      which makes sense in the short-term, but is remarkably foolish in the long-term because there is no guarantee that whatever palestinian leader that comes after abbas will be thus inclined.

      israel enjoyed a pretty darn good strategic position from 2008 to recently. it had the friendship of two regional powers, and a close relationship with the US. abbas had calmed down the west bank, while by early 2008 the Gaza War had temporarily thrown hamas back.

      this was the perfect time to negotiate, from a position of strength. instead, netanyahu has pissed away the last 3 years, and for all of his words, israel now has a significantly worse strategic situation than she did back then.
      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

      Comment


      • #18
        Astralis, I think we both understand full well that a "temporary" fix is no longer a fix these days and I also think Israel is keen to that fact as well. Without doing what needs to be done this problem will come back again as it has in the past for the Israeli's. Next time it might not be small rockets but much larger ones pointed at their cities instead. Its not like it needs a whole lot of range and "you know who" one of their main arms suppliers will be more then glad to supply it if its pointed at Israel. Otherwise any "Peace" process in that area is merely peeing into the wind and expecting to stay dry.

        Do you honestly think that Israeli soldier they have held captive and hidden will be released alive?

        A blatant violation of convention by an "entity" that demands statehood? And wants to be taken seriously?

        When the Palestinians want real peace they will deal with Hamas. Until then right now they are no better then others out there who allow a terrorist entity to dwell among them. A temporary fix is not a fix for what they are asking in return. So what good could any assurance of security possibly be?

        I do give credit though, The Palestinian UN rep did stay for the entire speech where as no one in Irans case and yet it is widely known who supplies Hamas its weapons along with a few others.

        The US is going after Pakistan and their association with the Haqqanis what makes Israel going after the Palestinians and their association with Hamas any different?
        Last edited by Dreadnought; 26 Sep 11,, 21:38.
        Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

        Comment


        • #19
          dread,

          Astralis, I think we both understand full well that a "temporary" fix is no longer a fix these days and I also think Israel is keen to that fact as well. Without doing what needs to be done this problem will come back again as it has in the past for the Israeli's. Next time it might not be small rockets but much larger ones pointed at their cities instead. Its not like it needs a whole lot of range and "you know who" one of their main arms suppliers will be more then glad to supply it if its pointed at Israel. Otherwise any "Peace" process in that area is merely peeing into the wind and expecting to stay dry.

          Do you honestly think that Israeli soldier they have held captive and hidden will be released alive? IMO, doubtful.
          none of this precludes the israelis from negotiating with the PA, however.

          IIRC, in 2008 when the war was going on there were reports of the PA secretly assisting the israelis against hamas.

          if israel was serious about negotiating with the PA, and actually came to an agreement, at a stroke this would instantly demonstrate that peaceful negotiations with the israelis did more to fulfill palestinian nationalist goals than all the rockets of hamas. it would also conclusively secure one flank as the IDF went into gaza.

          this would do far more to strengthen israeli security than any number of settlements. but israel-- or at least her current leadership-- is too blind to see it.
          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by astralis View Post
            dread,



            none of this precludes the israelis from negotiating with the PA, however.

            IIRC, in 2008 when the war was going on there were reports of the PA secretly assisting the israelis against hamas.

            if israel was serious about negotiating with the PA, and actually came to an agreement, at a stroke this would instantly demonstrate that peaceful negotiations with the israelis did more to fulfill palestinian nationalist goals than all the rockets of hamas. it would also conclusively secure one flank as the IDF went into gaza.

            this would do far more to strengthen israeli security than any number of settlements. but israel-- or at least her current leadership-- is too blind to see it.
            You know, I wish it was as easy as the Israeli's making Palestinians "temporary" citizens and welcoming them into their cities while leaving Hamas behind in the open crosshairs for whatever may come next. Then return them to their lands and agreement. Wishful thinking for the stupid I suppose..
            Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by astralis View Post
              dread,



              none of this precludes the israelis from negotiating with the PA, however.

              IIRC, in 2008 when the war was going on there were reports of the PA secretly assisting the israelis against hamas.

              if israel was serious about negotiating with the PA, and actually came to an agreement, at a stroke this would instantly demonstrate that peaceful negotiations with the israelis did more to fulfill palestinian nationalist goals than all the rockets of hamas. it would also conclusively secure one flank as the IDF went into gaza.

              this would do far more to strengthen israeli security than any number of settlements. but israel-- or at least her current leadership-- is too blind to see it.
              What's that saying? "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me"?
              Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

              Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

              Comment


              • #22
                BR,

                What's that saying? "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me"?
                given the obvious differences in how the PA is running things now (both domestically and internationally) compared to how they were in arafat's day...

                what should gall any thinking israeli is how the israeli government could treat with that terrorist arafat and offer him a better deal than anything they've given to abbas and fayyad, whom have done far more for israel than what even the israelis hoped for.
                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  dreadnought,



                  not sure what abbas CAN do about hamas. recall the PA lost that particular civil war with hamas. for that matter, even the israelis couldn't clean out hamas when they had the chance.
                  So a settlement with Abbas should not include the GAza Strip?
                  In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                  Leibniz

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                    In that case then why should the Israeli's feel any commitment to this Peace process knowing the attacks wont stop but will indeed get much closer and their citizens killed?

                    What needs to be done IMO, is for Hamas's supporters and weapons suppliers to be "unpluged". They are terrorists after all and we all know from recent and past history there is only one way to deal with terrorists. There is no political cure for stupidity nor hatred.
                    Abbas has demonstrated that he can control the West Bank. Very few if any terror attacks have originated from there since his takeover. As Astralis points out, Hamas is a differnt matter, peace with Abbas and the West Bank as the beginnings of a Palestinian state won't increase terror attacks against Israel unless Hamas or some other proxy comes to power there, which is unlikely.
                    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                    Leibniz

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Abbas is Arafat's successor, hand chosen by him. There's no other way he would have made it to the top. That being said, there is a problem comparing Intifada numbers with the numbers of relative quiet.

                      You article states that the Palestinians have been negotiating about negotiations. Why is it so hard to sit down at a table and talk? Forget preconditions. Both sides need to sit down with a clean slate and hammer out everything. Settlements, right of return, Jewish state, everything. Unfortunately, it's kinda hard to negotiate with a government when one half refuses to have anything all to do with either it's other half or with you.

                      I'm prejudiced, I've admitted this before, I'll admit it again. Kinda hard not to be prejudiced when so many of a people hate me and have done their utmost best to cause me and my friends/loved ones physical harm and even tried to kill them. The true is not the same for Israelis. True, there are many in Israel that would harm Palestinians for fun, but they are clearly in the minority, as opposed to a majority of Palestinians. I'm not being racist here, I'm being realistic. When's the last time there was a mass rally in Israel burning Palestinians flags and demanding death to all Arabs/Palestinians/Muslims?

                      That being said, I also believe that we can make peace. Unfortunately, until the PA and Hamas settle their differences (something they tried but couldn't do a few months ago), will any agreement actually stick? I'm a proponent of a three state solution, to me it seems the best way to proceed, but nobody really listens to me, do they? (Yet...) If Israel could negotiate in good faith over the West Bank with just the PA and isolate Hamas for good, I believe a peace agreement could be hammered out quite quickly. Swap land, agree to consequences regarding if either side breaks the agreement (and they need to be harsh, and have the power to be backed up), work out the differences and agree to live and let live.

                      Sounds so simple, doesn't it?
                      Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                      Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                        Abbas is Arafat's successor, hand chosen by him. There's no other way he would have made it to the top. That being said, there is a problem comparing Intifada numbers with the numbers of relative quiet.

                        You article states that the Palestinians have been negotiating about negotiations. Why is it so hard to sit down at a table and talk? Forget preconditions. Both sides need to sit down with a clean slate and hammer out everything. Settlements, right of return, Jewish state, everything. Unfortunately, it's kinda hard to negotiate with a government when one half refuses to have anything all to do with either it's other half or with you.

                        I'm prejudiced, I've admitted this before, I'll admit it again. Kinda hard not to be prejudiced when so many of a people hate me and have done their utmost best to cause me and my friends/loved ones physical harm and even tried to kill them. The true is not the same for Israelis. True, there are many in Israel that would harm Palestinians for fun, but they are clearly in the minority, as opposed to a majority of Palestinians. I'm not being racist here, I'm being realistic. When's the last time there was a mass rally in Israel burning Palestinians flags and demanding death to all Arabs/Palestinians/Muslims?

                        That being said, I also believe that we can make peace. Unfortunately, until the PA and Hamas settle their differences (something they tried but couldn't do a few months ago), will any agreement actually stick? I'm a proponent of a three state solution, to me it seems the best way to proceed, but nobody really listens to me, do they? (Yet...) If Israel could negotiate in good faith over the West Bank with just the PA and isolate Hamas for good, I believe a peace agreement could be hammered out quite quickly. Swap land, agree to consequences regarding if either side breaks the agreement (and they need to be harsh, and have the power to be backed up), work out the differences and agree to live and let live.

                        Sounds so simple, doesn't it?
                        I think the negotiation where one party secures most of the gains UPFRONT is called an ultimatum. the PA is not in a position to give ultimatums they apparently only want to negotiate if there is a guaranteed victory condition on that negotiation, its reasonable from an Arab point of view because they secure an automatic victory, and anything else is below that point so a defeat. The stupidity of course is they lost. In a sense its practical revisionism.

                        The reality is no country in the world would ever except this from a defeated party EVER. The sad part is the Arabs believe that this would be justice since them winning and getting everything they want is the only rational thing in their mind. Its like a sociopath trying to negotiate by buying a car for a button, screaming at the car dealer that unless he takes the button and gives him the car there is no way he can leave the parking lot or cease violence against the car dealership.

                        Peace can only come from acceptance they are still in denial. Peace agreement won't come until they are gone from the West Bank and there is nobody to negotiate with. Palestinian State exists only for as long as aid flows to provide a free ride to anyone who wants to play the part of the sociopath in the play above, once the money stops flowing most will move. Being racist implies an equal playing field and does not apply to military settlements of past conflicts, those are asymmetric situations and dictate for asymmetric resolutions, otherwise the dragging out of what is fair and right warps the reality to a convoluted state we have now.
                        Last edited by cyppok; 27 Sep 11,, 02:13.
                        Originally from Sochi, Russia.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          BR,

                          Forget preconditions.
                          How can one forget them, when both sides have them. We often hear Jewish preconditions, but I bet PA has their as well.

                          Tell me, in (your) theory, what would happen if you negotiate Palestinian state and Hamas wins?
                          - What would happen within the Palestinian state?
                          - What will happen in Israeli - Palestinian relations (state level)?, and
                          - What will happen in Israel?

                          Everything negotiated will go flush or I am wrong?
                          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            pari,

                            So a settlement with Abbas should not include the GAza Strip?
                            simplest method would be to treat the Gaza strip as under PA control (fictitious as that may be). come to a conclusion acceptable between israel and the PA, and then finally israel comes in and cleans out gaza, and lets the PA clean-up.
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              BR,

                              That being said, there is a problem comparing Intifada numbers with the numbers of relative quiet.
                              don't see where the problem is. it's true that the wall stopped a lot of the suicide bombs but it was at abba's direction, as well as the new american-funded security force, that brought the writ of the PA across the west bank.

                              and that writ is the thing stopping the rocket attacks.

                              You article states that the Palestinians have been negotiating about negotiations. Why is it so hard to sit down at a table and talk? Forget preconditions. Both sides need to sit down with a clean slate and hammer out everything. Settlements, right of return, Jewish state, everything. Unfortunately, it's kinda hard to negotiate with a government when one half refuses to have anything all to do with either it's other half or with you.
                              israel expanding settlements also constitutes new defacto "preconditions". ie, settlement expansion creates a new tactical environment, which with enough time creates a new strategic environment. in fact, that's the very goal of the religious types whom push for settlements-- to create enough of them and allow israel to negotiate from a stronger ground.

                              moreover, netanyahu has shown himself not interested in negotiating, as again, abbas is giving israel what israel primarily wants out of the PA- peace and quiet.

                              Unfortunately, until the PA and Hamas settle their differences (something they tried but couldn't do a few months ago), will any agreement actually stick? I'm a proponent of a three state solution, to me it seems the best way to proceed, but nobody really listens to me, do they? (Yet...) If Israel could negotiate in good faith over the West Bank with just the PA and isolate Hamas for good,
                              well, you seem to answer your own question. hamas is not likely to bargain in good faith, while the PA, as they've recently demonstrated, can.

                              i do not see the PA reclaiming gaza without israeli help, in any case, and that is impossible without the PA first gaining the street cred that can only be made by the creation of a Palestinian state.

                              the simple method is to continue isolation of Hamas and treat the PA as the sole political entity. empower the PA and crush hamas. this is good for the israelis, either way, because even if the PA turns bad, i suspect israel would rather only deal with one head of a snake.
                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by astralis View Post
                                pari,



                                simplest method would be to treat the Gaza strip as under PA control (fictitious as that may be). come to a conclusion acceptable between israel and the PA, and then finally israel comes in and cleans out gaza, and lets the PA clean-up.
                                I disagree West Bank and Gaza are under different governments. Gaza will most likely become the Palestinian State after West Bank is absorbed (as it should have been after 1967 same as Gaza)...

                                Maybe they will be like a little version of Lebanon except more stable and homogeneous after most people leave and those that remain stay peaceful and productive.
                                Originally from Sochi, Russia.

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