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  • Will UN grant statehood to Palestine: showdown nearing

    What's the betting on this? Will UN grant statehood?

    Palestinians currently have permanent observer entity status at the UN
    They are represented by the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO)
    Officials now want an upgrade so a state of Palestine has full member status at the UN
    They seek recognition on 1967 borders - in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem
    Enhanced observer member status could be an interim option

    14 September 2011 Last updated at 15:46 ET

    Palestinians head for UN state showdown

    By Wyre Davies BBC News, Jerusalem

    Not for the first time this year, Israel finds itself a nervous spectator as tumultuous events in the region around it rapidly change the shape and nature of the Middle East.

    The domino-like fall of authoritarian regimes in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya, not forgetting the violent turmoil in Syria, caught almost everyone by surprise and, arguably, left Israeli politicians floundering for a coherent policy response.

    The Israeli government was criticised in many quarters for its lukewarm response to the Arab Spring - concerns about regional security and the rise of Islamic political parties were perhaps seen as more important than expanding political pluralism in the Middle East.

    Justifiable criticism or not, those were events almost exclusively beyond Israeli control and over which it could ultimately have had little or no influence.

    The thorny issue of recognition for a Palestinian state is different story.

    The right-wing coalition government led by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has made it abundantly clear that it opposes "unilateral" Palestinian moves towards statehood, either as a full member of the UN, via the Security Council, or for "Enhanced Observer Member" status, via a majority vote in the General Assembly.

    Israel says either option seriously undermines negotiations towards a two-state solution - Israeli and Palestinian states existing side by side - saying that such a course of action will not lead to peace or the establishment of a Palestinian state.

    There have also been threats, from Israel's Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman and his deputy Danny Ayalon, that if the Palestinians go to the UN, Israel would consider changing the status of east Jerusalem and the West Bank settlements.

    "If the Palestinians independently take blunt unilateral steps to declare statehood, then all [previous] agreements are nullified," said Mr Ayalon on his Twitter account earlier this week.

    Warnings and threats aside, Israel stands accused of doing little to offer the Palestinians a constructive and viable alternative.

    The airport limousine services and VIP security details must have been stretched to their limits as a succession of senior US and European diplomats shuttled between Cairo, Jerusalem and Ramallah this week.

    The goal of Tony Blair, Catherine Ashton, Dennis Ross and David Hale to extract some genuine concession or initiative from the Israelis that would persuade the Palestinian leader, Mahmoud Abbas, to drop his bid for statehood at the UN and to return to peace talks.

    There has been considerable international pressure on the Palestinian side, too, to refrain from the UN option but the Palestinians are confident momentum - and much of the world - is on their side.

    Israel's long-established position is that there can be no "pre-conditions" to the resumption of talks and refuses to countenance suggestions that it should stop building in illegal settlements on occupied Palestinian land or offer any other concession to Mr Abbas.

    Time 'running out'

    There has been much analysis in Israel that, as consistent and firm as the position of Mr Netanyahu is, it only serves to increase the country's isolation at a time when Israel is losing friends and supporters in the region.
    President Barack Obama The US believes Palestinian statehood should only come through peace talks

    Recent difficulties with Egypt and Turkey aside, many Israelis feel their government is being out-manoeuvred by the Palestinian UN initiative and is not coming up with a credible, coherent response.

    Israel knows the United States will use its veto in the Security Council to oppose the declaration of a Palestinian state, should it come to that.

    And while it will back its strongest ally in the region, Washington would rather not have to use that veto because of the message it would convey in the wider Arab world.

    US President Barack Obama has, after all, declared his wish to see the Palestinian flag flying at the UN, albeit as a consequence of successful peace talks with Israel.

    That is why, on this occasion, Europe is arguably a more important player than the United States.

    If a majority of EU countries - especially the French, Germans and British - support Palestinian recognition at the UN that could make life very uncomfortable for Israel.

    The position of European governments is not yet clear - that is what the diplomats are busy finalising this week - but recent polls in Europe suggest their populations strongly support the idea of Palestinian membership at the UN.

    Israel's diplomats around the world have been busy too, putting forward arguments against Palestinian upgrading or full recognition at the UN.

    An aide to Prime Minister Netanyahu this week told the Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper: "Israel is not isolated... we should stop the self-flagellation as if we were to blame for everything."

    But many senior Israelis are convinced that a return to negotiations with the Palestinians will allay tensions, not only in the West Bank, Jerusalem and Israel but in the region as a whole.

    With time running out, what might be required now is a gesture from Israel that can make that a reality and avoid a showdown in New York next week.

    BBC News - Palestinians head for UN state showdown
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

  • #2
    You mean with an idiot like this having a say? IMO, Not likely...


    Maen Areikat, the Palestinian Liberation Organization's ambassador to the United States, met with reporters Tuesday in Washington D.C. and confirmed that Jews would not be allowed to live in the future state of Palestine.

    The Weekly Standard's John McCormack reported that Areikat claimed the state would tolerate minorities. "Asked by the Daily Caller's Jamie Weinstein if, following the establishment of a Palestinian state, 'there would be no Jews in the West Bank or Gaza,' Areikat answered in the affirmative. 'We have to be separated, we have to work on our own national identities,' he said."
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

    Comment


    • #3
      USA has pledged to veto in the UNSC and even if it does pass in the UNGA, it's non-binding, so the status quo is more or less the same as it always was.

      I've always been in favor of a Palestinian state. They are so inept, corrupt and stuck in their terrorist ways that their grand dream of statehood will come to naught, and we will finally have a legit and legal state to be in a state of war with and to declare as an enemy. Moreover, once they get a state their precious "underdog" card will finally disappear and maybe, just maybe, the world will finally see the light that both sides are complete and total assholes, but we're much less of an asshole than the other guy. In this game, that makes us the good guy. At least, it should...
      Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

      Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

      Comment


      • #4
        I see Canada holds the same opinion as it being knocked down at the UN.

        Canada rejects Palestinian Statehood - Political Forums
        Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
          Moreover, once they get a state their precious "underdog" card will finally disappear and maybe, just maybe, the world will finally see the light that both sides are complete and total assholes, but we're much less of an asshole than the other guy. In this game, that makes us the good guy. At least, it should...
          I have come to the conclusion that trying to pin who is the bigger is asshole in all this is futile; I simply blame each side for what they are doing wrong and say what they should do.

          I blame the Palestinians for years of intransigence and not coming to terms with the fact that they tried to use force and war multiple times and lost and there are consequences for that. Any Palestinian state that is formed will be on 22% of the pre 1947 Palestine (West Bank and Gaza) or probably lesser as Israel will need to safeguard its own security and major population centers. Their acts of terrorism undermine trust and guarantee that any Palestinian state will not have most aspects of sovereignty for many years or even decades.

          I blame the Israelis for occupying the West Bank (and to a lesser extent blockading Gaza, I blame Hamas about equally); more than the extent it needs for its own security and in violation of International law IMO. It does not to seem able to confront its own settlers who consider this area part of the historical Jewish state, and its right wing who seem content to occupy Palestinian land in perpetuity.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hell, let the UN do it.

            It'll make the goody two shoes in the UN feel all gooey and content and give them a reason to think they're doing some good....

            Comment


            • #7
              I was hoping we'd take this discussion to the future in broad terms. We all more or less know the status quo and who the actors are. But what happens after the UN General Assembly confers statehood on Palestine. Today Israel said there would be "dire" consequence. What does "dire" mean in Israeli speak?
              To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                I was hoping we'd take this discussion to the future in broad terms. We all more or less know the status quo and who the actors are. But what happens after the UN General Assembly confers statehood on Palestine. Today Israel said there would be "dire" consequence. What does "dire" mean in Israeli speak?
                Like I said, nothing will change. Absolutely nothing. What's gonna happen? Hamas and Fatah tried to join forces and that disintegrated almost immediately. Until one side or the other gives up, or alternatively wins, there is nothing that can or will be done. Let's not forget that the bastion of Palestinian Democracy, Mahmoud Abbas, head of the PA and the PLO, has overstayed his welcome and has not held elections even though they are years overdue.

                Let's continue: Geographically, there's nothing that can be done. There is literally no way of connecting Gaza and the West Bank without slicing Israel down the middle. Israel will not accept that for a couple reasons, which include the fact that Israel doesn't want to be cut in half, and the amazing security risk implicit in such a border. Even if you somehow managed to work out a land swap vis-a-vis the West Bank and actually managed to find a way to make two separate and consecutive blocs of land, one for the Israelis and one for the Palestinians, there's still no way to connect it with Gaza!

                Military: Say Palestine does become a state, and say they actually are allowed to arm themselves legally. Does anybody actually see Palestine as a country that will throw a proper war? A renegade Arab in Jerusalem with a bulldozer caused massive damage and plenty of injuries and deaths, can you imagine a "rogue" Palestinian tank crew running amok in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, or even one of the Israeli settlements in the Israeli bloc of land in the West Bank from the previous paragraph?

                Economy: Since Arafat there has been massive corruption in the PA and the PLO, and it hasn't stopped. A quick look at the numbers shows how many billions are going in to the PA's coffers and how many are being dished out. Where's the rest of it going?! Ask Suha Arafat, maybe she'll be able to tell you. How's your French? The instances of Hamas looting and stealing UN goods, foodstuffs and medicine aid are almost beyond counting. Only a few months ago Abbas declared that in order for a Palestinian state to stand on its own two feet it would need the assistance of billions of dollars from the USA and the EU. Why?!

                Fact of the matter is, I'm surprised no one has put a bullet into Abbas yet. The status quo at the moment may be unpleasant, but it's a far sight more than what the Palestinians will end up having if they decide they want a state. If you can come up with reasons that counter my points, go ahead. The way I see it, both sides are getting too much out of the situation now. Any change will either hurt one side or the other or both
                Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                  I've always been in favor of a Palestinian state. They are so inept, corrupt and stuck in their terrorist ways that their grand dream of statehood will come to naught, and we will finally have a legit and legal state to be in a state of war with and to declare as an enemy.
                  How has that logic penned out with Gaza?

                  Once they get this so called state, and yes, as you predict they will mess it up and guess who will get the blame? I will give you a clue, it won't be the Palestinian government. They will find an excuse to blame Israel and start throwing 'stones' at Israel again just to provoke Israel to take action. Or the failed government will just get itself some eloquent mullah who will whip the population with anti-Israeli demagoguery. Learn from the Egypt saga. The protesters there had nothing to do with Israel, they were conducting a demonstration against the military rulers there, and what do you know? 'Oh look, here is an Israeli embassy here, that's what is causing our problems not these military guys, let ransack it!'.

                  Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                  .. and maybe, just maybe, the world will finally see the light ....
                  The world will never see the light, it doesn't want to see the light.

                  The best solution here is a negotiated settlement which both parties can take ownership of. Or if PA gets this upgraded status, it would better be with all major democracies siding with Israel.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                    Like I said, nothing will change.
                    I understand what you mean in the sense that it will be business as usual internally. But there will be a change, first in the world's perception of Palestine and secondly in Palestine's image of itself. Everything they do subsequently will recast in a new light.

                    Let's continue: Geographically, there's nothing that can be done. There is literally no way of connecting Gaza and the West Bank without slicing Israel down the middle.
                    Hadn't Israel and Arafat agreed to a means of connecting the two, which agreement Arafat scuttled at the 11th hour.

                    Military: Say Palestine does become a state, and say they actually are allowed to arm themselves legally. Does anybody actually see Palestine as a country that will throw a proper war? A renegade Arab in Jerusalem with a bulldozer caused massive damage and plenty of injuries and deaths, can you imagine a "rogue" Palestinian tank crew running amok in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, or even one of the Israeli settlements in the Israeli bloc of land in the West Bank from the previous paragraph?
                    At worse, nothing will change. At best, Palestine would take the high road and work to settle its differences with Israel without government-sponsored violence. Rogues are beyond the control of either side and yet one or the other side will invariably hold the other side responsible when a rogue strikes. That formula guarantees talks will be perpetually gridlocked.


                    Any change will either hurt one side or the other or both
                    It can't be any worse than it is now. :)
                    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                      I understand what you mean in the sense that it will be business as usual internally. But there will be a change, first in the world's perception of Palestine and secondly in Palestine's image of itself. Everything they do subsequently will recast in a new light.
                      I doubt it. The only possible change in world perception would be that people will start holding the Palestinians accountable for their actions. When you consider the amount of headstart the Palestinians have had, they can still blame Israel for their "60+ years of oppression", an oppression so bad that even in 60 more years their grandchildren will still be able to accuse Israel.

                      I am not one of those "Everyone hates/blames Israel anyway", I believe in changing that point of view and hate hearing it bandied about, but let's face it, Israel PR machine sucks, and it's a hell of a lot easier to play the victim, something the Palestinians already have decades of experience doing

                      Hadn't Israel and Arafat agreed to a means of connecting the two, which agreement Arafat scuttled at the 11th hour.
                      Israel also agreed back then to hand Arafat 90% of his demands. I don't see that one happening again anytime soon

                      At worse, nothing will change. At best, Palestine would take the high road and work to settle its differences with Israel without government-sponsored violence. Rogues are beyond the control of either side and yet one or the other side will invariably hold the other side responsible when a rogue strikes. That formula guarantees talks will be perpetually gridlocked.
                      But what about so-called rogues? Give 3 or 4 Palestinians Jihadis a tank, give them orders to cause as much damage and chaos as possible, and when it's all over, say they were rogues. Instant abdication. How many times have Iraqi and Afghani forces turned on the US forces with them or been found working with the other side?

                      It can't be any worse than it is now. :)
                      Of course it can. In a million and one different ways. Truth is, if you pardon the figure of speech, you probably will be able to find one million and one ways it could be worse
                      Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                      Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        With which maps the PA will come in front of the UN, 1967 or something else?

                        If they are to go out with 1967 maps as some articles state, I'd say good luck to them.

                        Anyway if this initiative fails like it seems it will coz of the US veto... is there any time period they are not allowed to seek recognition by UN? I ask this as it seems that US will have to use its' powers every September ;)
                        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          They can try and go with '67 lines. Problem is they are complete hogwash. Not only that, if they demand that Israel revert to the '67 lines with Jordan, why not with Syria as well? That is an existential threat to Israel.

                          But let's say they do go with '67 lines. I'd like to see them try and uproot all those settlers. Good luck with that. Israel had a hard time doing it in 2005 and we were much better trained and prepared for the job
                          Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                          Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                            They can try and go with '67 lines. Problem is they are complete hogwash. Not only that, if they demand that Israel revert to the '67 lines with Jordan, why not with Syria as well? That is an existential threat to Israel.

                            But let's say they do go with '67 lines. I'd like to see them try and uproot all those settlers. Good luck with that. Israel had a hard time doing it in 2005 and we were much better trained and prepared for the job
                            Ah, they must have learned some tricks from you in the past years.
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                            • #15
                              No. US and most likely UK and Russia veto.

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