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Thread: What if - Spain joined the Axis in 1939.

  1. #46
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Erm, not quite.

    According to your link Romania is responsible for the deaths of ~400,000 jews, Bulgaria had 44,000 on its' soil but are responsible for ~20,000 deportations from the territories they occupied, Jasenovac is hardly hundreds of thousands, it's estimated between 8,000 and 25,000...

    However, I don't see how enforcing Holocaust is helping the Axis besides fine German soldiers are elsewhere doing something else, nor how is this related to Franco, who wasn't against Jews (officially).
    I was doing a quick top of the head. I'm pretty sure the figures for Romania are in the 280-380,000 range, but might have missed a few. You might be right on Bulgaria, but it still seems to say 14,000 to me. Should have been more specific on jacenovac, didn't mean to imply they were all jews. Most were serbs with a few others thrown in.

    The point? that went south when 1979 got snarky about my assessment of the worth of Hitler's allies. Its been getting progressively siller ever since, I'm just along for the ride. Like I said, we pretty much killed the Franco aspect early on.

    If you want to get technical Hitler's allies pitching in saved Germany having to do all the mass killing by itself. Given the amount of resources germany was prepared to expend in pursuit of this goal that was undoubtedly a service. Whether or not this disproves my assertion of 'worthlessness' is for others to decide. I would note, however, that Italy did indeed prove nearly worthless when it came to killing & deporting Jews. Just one more on Hitler's long list of frustrations with Il Duce I imagine.


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  2. #47
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    Gentlemen, please stay with the topic:

    "What if - Spain joined the Axis in 1939"

    This thread is drifting badly and is in danger of foundering. Thank you.

  3. #48
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    For such a big complex the numbers of the Jews killed there are quite low, meaning it's sole purpose was something else, hint - the Serbs.

    Maybe Hitler Allies were unworthy in your eyes, but they contributed with more casualties and engaged approximately 6 mil servicemen (w/o Japan).

    6 mil combatants Hitler should have recruited from Germany, something which would have been able to do if and only if Germany invented robots back in 1935

    Besides, Hitler didn't think Spain would be worthless ally, otherwise he wouldn't ask Franco to jump in, right?
    Last edited by Doktor; 31 Aug 11, at 15:22.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    How much longer would it have taken if Germany hadn't declared war on the US? Thats my point here.
    But that has nothing to do with Japan not doing her part and she also tied down 45 Soviet divisions.

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    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Doktor,although Chogy is right about the thread drifting,there's a bit you need to get.I'm not going to debate Bigfella since we withdrew our embassies long ago(besides,there's no point talking to a ''crusader'',like 1979 aptly called him).
    The subject of Romanian Jews in WW2 is way too complex and hot to be ended in a few words.Long story short,the killings were definetely NOT in the 200000+ as the Wiesel commission reported.The report itself has more to do with politics than science and its style and conclusions have been debunked by the very few historians brave enough to actually research the issue.The attitudes of the people and the policies of the state at the time,were not even towards different sorts of Jews.Romanian Jews were the largest surviving community in Europe and that was despite Nazi insistence to hand them over.In that regard the entire nation was on the same page.What happened with them was a reduction of their liberties and rights compared to pre-war era,but that happened in the whole country.Jewish community contributed at the war effort,but they were also not mobilized,unlike WW1 or before.There was also a search for a long term solution and that was Zionism,something Romanian Jewry was heavily involved in,since its migration in 19th century.Their wish at the time was to have Romania as a temporary safe haven from persecutions elsewhere,and in that regard we were just that.
    Bessarabian Jews were a different matter.They were members of the 5th column in disproportionate numbers.Wiesel Commission asserts that's a myth invented in 1940 and afterwards.Police and security services must have been on drugs in the 20's and 30's.A report from 1930 identified 30000 active Soviet sympathisers,of which 10000 were Jews.Jews also tended to be the most violently inclined militants.The causes for this difference in attitudes are many.For a start,these Jews had no particular reasons to be loyal.They were Russian Jews and our union made them miss the opportunities available to Jews in USSR,at least in its first 2 decades.
    And here's another nuance,true for all Eastern Europe,just to make everyone's mind boggle.While Jews were commies in disproportionate numbers,most Jews were not.However,commies had a tendency to screw everyone badly(''only'' a few tens of millions that knew afterlife sooner than they had planned).Those that didn't died experimented enough ''niceties''.When the tides of history turned they remembered their tormentors.Only the real assholes fled,leaving innocent(non commie Jews)to suffer.Judeo-Bolshevism may have been a Nazi propaganda cliche in which only the fanatical Nazis believed.The Ukrainians,Lithuanians,etc... weren't subjected to Nazi incessant propaganda.They knew only the iron grip weakened and they were too traumatized to punish selectively.
    As for Bessarabian Jews,our army in 1941 found a lot of them gone.The Soviets deported regular Jews,just as they did to every other group.Most hardcore Red Jews fled eastwards.Since those were obviously missing,Wiesel commission assumed them murdered by us.Transylvanian Jews sent by the Hungarian Arrow Cross regime also were missing from Romania after the war.Yep,we ''killed'' those too.
    Now,what we did.We killed a few thousands during Iasi pogrom,although that involves heavily the Germans,since this area at the time was under their control.still we were there and it was in our yard.A few pi$$ed troops murdered a few hundreds Jews after completing their retreat from Bessarabia,only to be stopped by disciplined units.Later the ringleaders were court-martialed.The killings in Transdniestr were in part locals taking their turn(see above),part lack of resources,part neglect,part some chaps abusing power.The so called Odessa massacre has yet to be properly documented,but the orders there were confusing and the numbers don't quite add.
    For the most,that's it.I won't comment further on this topic.If you want to talk this further,please make a thread on mass killings in Eastern Europe,WW2.It's a can of worms,but that's it.
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  6. #51
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    No, what I said was 'one more worthless ally for Hitler to carry'. That is most definately NOT what you just quoted & nor is it what a lot of your responses have been directed at. You think all of Hitler's allies were worthwhile who pulled their weight (and remember, I only need one to make my point) then knock yourself out.
    I read a good article awhile ago about the subject and the argument was that Germany itself was a pretty crappy ally; demanding payment in Gold, not providing tech transfers for weapons their allies requested and so forth. But the point stands Spanish troops would have been getting run over by M-4 and T-34s, pounded by heavy artillery and bombed at will. Short of Germany taking over what remained of Spanish industries to build them tanks, trucks, airplanes and artillery (even then not all that much I'm sure could be made), they would just be warm bodies and require German troops in Spain.
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  7. #52
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    I read a good article awhile ago about the subject and the argument was that Germany itself was a pretty crappy ally; demanding payment in Gold, not providing tech transfers for weapons their allies requested and so forth. But the point stands Spanish troops would have been getting run over by M-4 and T-34s, pounded by heavy artillery and bombed at will. Short of Germany taking over what remained of Spanish industries to build them tanks, trucks, airplanes and artillery (even then not all that much I'm sure could be made), they would just be warm bodies and require German troops in Spain.
    Right on both points. There's a Groucho Marx quote about not wanting you join any club that would have him as a mamber which sort of applies here. A best case here is that Spain joining doesn't set back the Axis cause. Not even sure about that.


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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    How much longer would it have taken if Germany hadn't declared war on the US? Thats my point here.
    Possibly the defeat of Soviet Russia. A US at war with Japan but not Germany and Italy is goign to find it hard to stick to a Germany first policy with an American public enraged by Japan. Real efforts to relieve Corregidor and Bataan might be in order to possibly disasterous results for the US. The US losing 2-3 carriers before April 42 will drastically alter the balance of power in the Pacific until 1944.

    Soviet reliance on LL trucks and chemicals in particular are only growing after 43 following the exhaustion of pre-war stocks for the winter of 42-43 offensives including Stalingrad, Army Group Center and Kharkov. If that aid is cut from inception or delayed the Red Army has a huge ammuntion and transportation problem. UK and Soviet AFV production was 132,000 or so with Germany coming in at around 67,000. If the Soviets have to divert resources to rebuild thier chemicals industry then that number will be much closer to even giving Germany's armed forces a much needed break. This will prolong Soviet reliance on manpower over firepower. A loss of 5000 more tanks in the East and no real threat in the West until 45 and the Red Army dies in Russia. Bagration is important here not becuase of the numbers of men involved, but becuase of the numbers of guns. By 44 the man power situation was gettign critical for the red army and fire had to substitute for blood. Luckily for Stalin, Hitle rplayed into his hands with festungs. A German Army allowed to retreat and fight a mobile battle will leave Russia all but crippled long before the Vistula. A Germany army that never has to adopt Festungs will do it in Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    I read a good article awhile ago about the subject and the argument was that Germany itself was a pretty crappy ally; demanding payment in Gold, not providing tech transfers for weapons their allies requested and so forth. But the point stands Spanish troops would have been getting run over by M-4 and T-34s, pounded by heavy artillery and bombed at will. Short of Germany taking over what remained of Spanish industries to build them tanks, trucks, airplanes and artillery (even then not all that much I'm sure could be made), they would just be warm bodies and require German troops in Spain.
    Against Soviet infantry the Spanish soldier did well outside Lenningrad and as part of other units they did well against what ever the Soviets had the last of the Spanish volunteers fighting and dying in Berlin. Of 45,000 Spainards that fought on the Eastern fron less thant 400 were captured but 13,600 were killed or wounded. This compares very favorably with the other allied forces fighting for Germany and even against Germany herself. Germany ended the war with about a 50/50 ratio between KIA/MIA and EPW. USSR was about 3:1, the UK 2:1, US about 9:1 while Spain was 34:1 .... Granted Spain wasn't all in and didn't stay in, but the combat experiance of the Spanish troops is pretty clear- they were tough fighters. They might well have surprised Mr Tommy on Gibraltar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Doktor,although Chogy is right about the thread drifting,there's a bit you need to get.I'm not going to debate Bigfella since we withdrew our embassies long ago(besides,there's no point talking to a ''crusader'',like 1979 aptly called him)....
    Careful, on thin ice. It doesn't matter if Romania didn't pull the trigger and only drove the getaway car. Culpability is shared under the Nuremburg principle. Holocuast denial and apologia are forbidden. In the end it doesn;t matter if 1 million, 6 million or 16 million really died for hate- industrial scale hate killing was a part of WWII and MUST NEVER BE FORGOTTEN. A good discussion on the Holocuast will only add victims- Gypsies, gays, Slavs, disabled, Poles.... not reduce the numbers.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Possibly the defeat of Soviet Russia. A US at war with Japan but not Germany and Italy is goign to find it hard to stick to a Germany first policy with an American public enraged by Japan. Real efforts to relieve Corregidor and Bataan might be in order to possibly disasterous results for the US. The US losing 2-3 carriers before April 42 will drastically alter the balance of power in the Pacific until 1944.
    And again we come back to the point that once Stalin lost Europe, he has no choice but to turn his attention East and the result would have been a defeat of Japan in 42 and the entire Allies (vs the Axis) re-orienting itself back towards Europe.

  12. #57
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Careful, on thin ice. It doesn't matter if Romania didn't pull the trigger and only drove the getaway car. Culpability is shared under the Nuremburg principle. Holocuast denial and apologia are forbidden. In the end it doesn;t matter if 1 million, 6 million or 16 million really died for hate- industrial scale hate killing was a part of WWII and MUST NEVER BE FORGOTTEN. A good discussion on the Holocuast will only add victims- Gypsies, gays, Slavs, disabled, Poles.... not reduce the numbers.
    Z,with respect,you missed my point,by far.About the discussion,be my guest.We can also talk about those that shut the door in the victims face when they were trying to escape the gangsters,we can also talk about other sorts of industrial hate killing and perpetrators which are intimately linked to the holocaust,but somehow it gets separated.I can handle the truth.The question is if you can.Or shall we stop here.
    p.s Btw,where on Earth did you saw apologia or denial?Did I condoned killing of innocents or said it never happened?Maybe trying to understand a phenomenon properly and in its wider context is a crime
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    And again we come back to the point that once Stalin lost Europe, he has no choice but to turn his attention East and the result would have been a defeat of Japan in 42 and the entire Allies (vs the Axis) re-orienting itself back towards Europe.
    I think 42 is a bit optimistic. Stalin won't turn east if he does until after the failure of his armies in 42. By then the FEA will be greatly reduced in petrol and ammuntion. While its troops will be crack (by Soviet standards) the VVS's FEAF will have fallen hopelessly behind and its lead in armor not nearly so great as in 45.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    I think 42 is a bit optimistic. Stalin won't turn east if he does until after the failure of his armies in 42. By then the FEA will be greatly reduced in petrol and ammuntion. While its troops will be crack (by Soviet standards) the VVS's FEAF will have fallen hopelessly behind and its lead in armor not nearly so great as in 45.
    Vis-a-vi the Kwantung Army? The Soviets would have taken heavier casualties (though not by much) but the outcome would not have been in doubt and the resulting benefits (4 Chinese Armies and a penal Japanese Army) as well as the entire Japanese war production centre (Korea) would have been worth the effort and casualties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Did I condoned killing of innocents or said it never happened?
    Yes

    What happened with them was a reduction of their liberties and rights compared to pre-war era,but that happened in the whole country.Jewish community contributed at the war effort,but they were also not mobilized,unlike WW1

    Bessarabian Jews were a different matter.They were members of the 5th column in disproportionate numbers.Wiesel Commission asserts that's a myth invented in 1940 and afterwards.Police and security services must have been on drugs in the 20's and 30's.A report from 1930 identified 30000 active Soviet sympathisers,of which 10000 were Jews. Jews also tended to be the most violently inclined militants

    Those comments paint a very dangerous picture of Jews as an internal threat who are not pulling thier own weight the leeches of Europe basically straight out of antiemitic writings of the period.

    The you go on to recount the atrocties your willign to admit to with caveats with one major caveat missing. That those killed were only from those 10,000 violently inclined militants. We both no why you didn't make that claim- the dead included very non-militant women, children, elderly, acadmeics, bankers, clergy....

    Maybe trying to understand a phenomenon properly and in its wider context is a crime
    No, but trying to reduce the severity of it is in a lot of countries. Even if you had rock solid research proving every point the laws beign what they are means any such discussion here on WAB risks legal repercussions for European wabbits who chime in. Better to just leave the topic alone. Afterall no amount of apologia will bring the dead back to life.

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