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Thread: What if - Spain joined the Axis in 1939.

  1. #31
    Senior Contributor 1979's Avatar
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    US entry in the war was going to happen sooner or later , they were already providing escort for commonwealth vessels , lend and lease, volunteers...
    the declarations of war formalized what was already happening.

    right, who needs 2 axis navies when taking on 2 of the most powerful navies in the world.

    the Italians were not confident that a defense of Tunisia was possible, they went along after Hitler boosted his commitments there.
    J'ai en marre.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    OK, so if it weren't for his worthless Italian ally going to war with Britain those British corps don't do much more than a bit of sightseeing in France until D-Day - something only made possible because Hitler decalred war on the most powerful nation in the world in order to encourage his Japanese ally to attack the one place in all of this where he actually DID want a war - Russia (yes, I know the US was likely to have found a war into the war all by itself, but we don't know how & when & what it might have meant for those 3 British corps). Still think Hitler would have lost, but you really aren't doing much good proving the worth of some of those Allies.
    I'm confident Churchill might have a idea where to use them,either Greece France or Italy.
    the fact that some were either technically neutral did not bother him.
    And frankly i do even bother to convince you, you can call the axis allies what ever you like, their service remains.
    J'ai en marre.

  3. #33
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Having a navy is all good.But the Axis didn't really tried to decisively defeat the RN in the Med.That it suffered more than elsewhere is true,but the whole Med theater was a halfhearted attempt.Since the main objective became Russia,all else is secondary,or it should have been.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Again, you appear to be trying to prove my point for me. Hitler allies himself with someone stupid enough to send hundreds of thousands of troops to Russia while unable to actually defend his own empire - an empire only under threat because he invited himself to a war he could have watched from the sidelines (and note that I haven't even had to bring up Italy getting beaten up by Greece or struggling against a barely functional Yugoslavia - talk about useless). I've said it before, Italy had no business involving iteself in a war with grownups. Gassing Ethiopians or beating up King Zog was about Italy's level. A worthless ally.
    No what you said and I quoted was that Hitler carried his " worthless" allies .
    which is not true unless you meant carry them to swift defeat.
    J'ai en marre.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Having a navy is all good.But the Axis didn't really tried to decisively defeat the RN in the Med.That it suffered more than elsewhere is true,but the whole Med theater was a halfhearted attempt.Since the main objective became Russia,all else is secondary,or it should have been.
    and how does that happen ?
    does Hitler withdraws his troops from france or poland and pays war compensations to the uk ?
    J'ai en marre.

  6. #36
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    What all this has to do with Franco being wise enough to stay aside?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  7. #37
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1979 View Post
    No what you said and I quoted was that Hitler carried his " worthless" allies .
    which is not true unless you meant carry them to swift defeat.
    No, what I said was 'one more worthless ally for Hitler to carry'. That is most definately NOT what you just quoted & nor is it what a lot of your responses have been directed at. You think all of Hitler's allies were worthwhile who pulled their weight (and remember, I only need one to make my point) then knock yourself out.

    And frankly i do even bother to convince you, you can call the axis allies what ever you like, their service remains.
    So do the mass graves of their victims.


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  8. #38
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1979 View Post
    I'm confident Churchill might have a idea where to use them,either Greece France or Italy.
    the fact that some were either technically neutral did not bother him.
    OK, so Churchill was going to invade Italy? Churchill is going to pick a fight with the only decent navy left in Europe and with colonies placed inconveniently close to Britain's colonial lifeline? All while fighting in the Atlantic, the Pacific (well, not so much now) and the Indian ocean? You really want to go with that? My recollection is that without a ton of US support the British couldn't even expel Axis forces from a few islands. italy was a bit bigger & a bit more full of soldiers & mountains & stuff. Seems like a reach to me. Italy may have been a worthless ally, but that doesn't mean that Britain trying to invade one out was in any way a bright thing to do.

    Perhaps Winnie would have tried it on in France or Greece, but only after Koba the dread had minced up Hitler so badly that it would be the equivalent of a slap to a man who has just had his legs crushed.


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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    No, what I said was 'one more worthless ally for Hitler to carry'. That is most definately NOT what you just quoted & nor is it what a lot of your responses have been directed at. You think all of Hitler's allies were worthwhile who pulled their weight (and remember, I only need one to make my point) then knock yourself out.
    Well you can have Vichy France if you wish ,they don't count as a ally in my book.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    So do the mass graves of their victims.
    do tell...
    J'ai en marre.

  10. #40
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    What all this has to do with Franco being wise enough to stay aside?
    Not a lot. I think we pretty much killed that one on page one. Franco lots cleverer than his Fascist counterparts. Spain has little to contribute to the Axis apart from lots of indefensible coastline & a few divisions of reasonably trained & experienced but poorly resourced soldiers (there were lots more divisions, but not much depth). The RAF gets target practice & the RN finds out in 1939-40 what it would later discover at Taranto - planes can sink ships in their berths.


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  11. #41
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1979 View Post

    do tell...
    Well, that took about 2 minutes on google. No need to waste any more time. Like I said, Hitler's allies did have their talents.

    Romania in World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Hungarian Jewry and the Holocaust

    Jasenovac concentration camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    History of the Jews in Bulgaria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Holocaust in Slovakia


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  12. #42
    Senior Contributor 1979's Avatar
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    I willing to delude myself that after 2 min of searching you actually read them.
    J'ai en marre.

  13. #43
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1979 View Post
    I willing to delude myself that after 2 min of searching you actually read them.
    What exactly did I miss? The 300,000 plus killed by Romania, the 14,000 deported by Bulgaria? the hundreds of thousands murdered in Jasenovac? The mass deportations carried out by the Arrow Cross? The fine work of everybody's favourite genocidal priest? (who I'm pretty sure wasn't even excommunicated for his activities). I'm sure that if I was prepared to waste more of my life I could dig up some of Mussolini's nastiness (especially under the Salo Republic & in Ethiopia) & murders of other ethnic or political groups. Then there was Vichy.

    Notice how I knew exactly where to look & what for. Didn't need google to know what I was talking about, just needed it to let you know that I did. A sad & sorry tale of the most vile behaviour imaginable.

    We done now? This has gotten way beyond silly.


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  14. #44
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    I believe
    this http://www.inshr-ew.ro/pdf/Final_Report.pdf was the link you were looking for.
    oh yes were done.
    Clearly the topic at hand has little to do with your holly crusade.
    J'ai en marre.

  15. #45
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    What exactly did I miss? The 300,000 plus killed by Romania, the 14,000 deported by Bulgaria? the hundreds of thousands murdered in Jasenovac? The mass deportations carried out by the Arrow Cross? The fine work of everybody's favourite genocidal priest? (who I'm pretty sure wasn't even excommunicated for his activities). I'm sure that if I was prepared to waste more of my life I could dig up some of Mussolini's nastiness (especially under the Salo Republic & in Ethiopia) & murders of other ethnic or political groups. Then there was Vichy.

    Notice how I knew exactly where to look & what for. Didn't need google to know what I was talking about, just needed it to let you know that I did. A sad & sorry tale of the most vile behaviour imaginable.

    We done now? This has gotten way beyond silly.
    Erm, not quite.

    According to your link Romania is responsible for the deaths of ~400,000 jews, Bulgaria had 44,000 on its' soil but are responsible for ~20,000 deportations from the territories they occupied, Jasenovac is hardly hundreds of thousands, it's estimated between 8,000 and 25,000...

    However, I don't see how enforcing Holocaust is helping the Axis besides fine German soldiers are elsewhere doing something else, nor how is this related to Franco, who wasn't against Jews (officially).
    Last edited by Doktor; 31 Aug 11, at 13:23.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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