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Thread: The Vatican and NASA

  1. #226
    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    When Stephen Hawkings came up with imaginary time, I just stopped and said that is religion. We have no more proof of imaginary time than how many angels can dance on a head of a pin. The only thing that works in the favour of imaginary time is that it works in equations explaining other theories also made up.

    However, people put just as much faith in Stephen Hawkings as many do the Pope? Are they wrong? I don't know but I do know that there is no such thing as imaginary time and for people to toute that the science works have absolutely no clue just how much bunk the scientists had to come up with to make it work,
    I largely agree. I have seen many people who take this theoretical cosmology stuff on faith, claiming it is right though they have no clue about it, and they often garble it hideously in the press- blathering about God in the process. I do see complex time as a useful idea - as a mathematical modeling tool. As I understand it; complex (imaginary) time is essentially two dimensional time where ti =(t +it), analogous to complex numbers which have proved essential in electric field calculations (where i is the square root of -1). Perhaps time is n-dimensional tN = (C1t1 + C2t2 + C3t3 + ... + cntn), were Cx are a scalar coefficients and tx are linear time variables, and is beyond our physical experience? Perhaps time calculations could be expressed in tensor form, for example : j Tk , as an operator rather than a scalar, in transforms on n dimensional time objects?

    We humans normally experience time as linear one dimensional events. The idea of time not being linear has been expressed before Hawking, but his use in calculations might be new. The safety of working in a field that most like won't be validated in his lifetime (or ever?) insulates him from criticism by proof of mistakes and seems to draw some to worship his genius as god-like - but in the end he's still a man - though a pretty bright and a unique man for sure.
    Last edited by USSWisconsin; 13 Jul 12, at 17:50.
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  2. #227
    Banned tankie's Avatar
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    Hawking said , heaven does not exist . Its a fairy story .


    Stephen Hawking: 'There is no heaven; it's a fairy story' | Science | The Guardian

  3. #228
    Officer of Engineers
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    Quote Originally Posted by USSWisconsin View Post
    I largely agree. I have seen many people who take this theoretical cosmology stuff on faith, claiming it is right though they have no clue about it, and they often garble it hideously in the press- blathering about God in the process. I do see complex time as a useful idea - as a mathematical modeling tool. As I understand it; complex (imaginary) time is essentially two dimensional time where ti =(t +it), analogous to complex numbers which have proved essential in electric field calculations (where i is the square root of -1). Perhaps time is n-dimensional tN = (C1t1 + C2t2 + C3t3 + ... + cntn), were Cx are a scalar coefficients and tx are linear time variables, and is beyond our physical experience? Perhaps time calculations could be expressed in tensor form, for example : j Tk , as an operator rather than a scalar, in transforms on n dimensional time objects?

    We humans normally experience time as linear one dimensional events. The idea of time not being linear has been expressed before Hawking, but his use in calculations might be new. The safety of working in a field that most like won't be validated in his lifetime (or ever?) insulates him from criticism by proof of mistakes and seems to draw some to worship his genius as god-like - but in the end he's still a man - though a pretty bright and a unique man for sure.
    I want you to do a little experiment. Keeping the equations exactly the same but change one symbol A for Ti ... or substitute Angels for Imaginary Time.

    And that is exactly the problem I have with this line of thought ... and Stephen Hawkins own fallacy. Once he crossed that line into imaginary time, then everything can also be explained by God. He does not disprove it. In fact, he is strengthening it. He is using religion (ie imaginary time) to argue against religion (God).
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 13 Jul 12, at 20:56.

  4. #229
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankie View Post
    Hawking said , heaven does not exist . Its a fairy story .


    Stephen Hawking: 'There is no heaven; it's a fairy story' | Science | The Guardian
    Define heaven...
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  5. #230
    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Here's Einstein's view of man in relation to religion. His idea of levels is compelling.


    With primitive man it is above all fear that evokes religious notions- fear of hunger, wild beasts, sickness, death. Since at this stage of existence understanding of causal connections is usually poorly developed, the human mind creates illusory beings more or less analogous to itself on whose wills and actions these fearful happenings depend.

    The social impulses are another source of the crystallization of religion. Fathers and mothers and the leaders of larger human communities are mortal and fallible. The desire for guidance, love, and support prompts men to form the moral conception of God. This is the God of Providence, who protects, rewards, disposes, and punishes; the God who, according to the limits of the believer’s outlook, loves and cherishes the life of the tribe or of the human race, or even life itself; the comforter in sorrow and unsatisfied longing. He who preserves the souls of the dead. This is the social or moral conception of God.

    Common to all these types is the anthropomorphic character of their conception of God. In general, only individuals of exceptional endowments, and exceptionally high-minded communities, rise to any considerable extent above this level. But there is a third stage of religious experience which belongs to all of them, even though it is rarely found in a pure form: I shall call it cosmic religious feeling. It is very difficult to elucidate this feeling to anyone who is entirely without it, especially as there is no anthropomorphic conception of God corresponding to it.

    The individual feels the futility of human desires and aims and the sublimity of marvelous order which reveal themselves both in nature and in the world on thought. Individual existence impress him as a sort of prison and he wants to experience the universe as a single significant whole. The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man’s image; so that there can be no church.

    It is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it.

    The cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest reason for scientific research.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

  6. #231
    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    I am more comfortable with Einstein's view - I found this site - it is interesting:
    Albert Einstein: Quotes on God, Religion, Theology

    If Hawking is indeed saying what they report - Perhaps he has abandoned any faith in what he can't explain - elevating his view of science to a religion, which, in his perspective, is the only explanation? If the mind is a computer, as the article states - who designed it? Did the forces of random chance simply design and perfect it? I don't have the time to read Hawking's latest book - and from what I hear about it - I am not very motivated to find that time.

    Personally, I believe there is such a thing as supernatural - which means beyond nature. It is fluid and dynamic - our understanding of nature grows and changes - and with it the boundary between the two. Physics is natural science so it doesn't claim to explain things outside of nature. Accepting there are things we don't know does not necessarily carry with it the belief in superstitions - like fairies.

    Discounting one's own experiences and observations is not good science - so I choose not follow the path that Hawking is allegedly defining.
    Last edited by USSWisconsin; 14 Jul 12, at 18:12.
    "If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
    If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

  7. #232
    Banned tankie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Define heaven...
    Who , me ?

    I reckon you all know my definition of "heaven" good health/ wine/women/ and song does it for me

    but no'one can definitely say it exists , not having been there , not even S Hawking .
    Last edited by tankie; 14 Jul 12, at 17:46.

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  9. #234
    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USSWisconsin View Post
    I am more comfortable with Einstein's view - I found this site - it is interesting:
    Albert Einstein: Quotes on God, Religion, Theology

    If Hawking is indeed saying what they report - Perhaps he has abandoned any faith in what he can't explain - elevating his view of science to a religion, which, in his perspective, is the only explanation? If the mind is a computer, as the article states - who designed it? Did the forces of random chance simply design and perfect it? I don't have the time to read Hawking's latest book - and from what I hear about it - I am not very motivated to find that time.

    Personally, I believe there is such a thing as supernatural - which means beyond nature. It is fluid and dynamic - our understanding of nature grows and changes - and with it the boundary between the two. Physics is natural science so it doesn't claim to explain things outside of nature. Accepting there are things we don't know does not necessarily carry with it the belief in superstitions - like fairies.

    Discounting one's own experiences and observations is not good science - so I choose not follow the path that Hawking is allegedly defining.

    I'm also more comfortable with Einstein's view, mainly because he recognizes levels in man's perception of his existence in relation to his surroundings. The primitives had no science to debunk the false assertions behind their religions, whereas later man did and does.

    Einstein plays it safe, however, because he's a realist who knows what he doesn't know, which would be a good way for all of us to look at these unfathomable questions of existence.

    As for the supernatural, maybe you could just lump it in with the natural and call it that part of the natural that we can't grasp yet. Or you can call it the action of the Absolute. If we visualize a line from the atom, through man, through organic life on earth, through the earth, through the planets in our solar system, through the sun, through our universe (the Milky Way) and finally through all universes, we'll come to the one level which encompasses it all, the Absolute--absolutely everything.

    Now, it's a scientific fact that energy and matter in our universe proceed from the higher to the lower level and, therefore, the influence of the higher dictates the behavior of the lower. Armed with those facts and our sensory perception that everything going on around us did not create itself, we can assign attributes to the Absolute. You could call those attributes supernatural since we can't go farther than the Absolute and there is no known explanation how it, the prime creator could have created itself. But we can appreciate the situation and not be so damn arrogant, like Hawking and others like him.

    Contemplating man's level in relation to the other levels gives rise to some interesting questions, such as why does man engage in periodic mass self-exterminations, why does he try to accumulate material things, and why does he struggle for power over others. These behaviors may suit nature's purpose for all we know. If so, we are just responding to natural law affecting man. Escaping this law is what religion seems to be about. Love, forgiveness, humility, blah blah...may be the way and perhaps this is what the men who launched the great religions realized and wished to share with other men. Well, one can let one's mind roam freely over the possibilities. Prejudiced people have no fun.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankie View Post
    What miracle/s did you witness ??
    Some -
    (a) One a patrol on a pitch dark night in mountains, the track disappeared and we were walking on a 45 degree slant for about 25 mtrs. Next day I came back to check. The track had washed out and we had walked on sheer rock at a slant, a slip would have landed any one of us at least 800 to 1000 feet down.

    (b) I was on leave when I heard that 2 men from my rif coy had been killed in an ambush. Before returning to my unit, I went to a very famous church dedicated to Our Lady, and prayed to keep the unit safe from fatalities. This was in April 1995, and when my unit moved out 2 1/2 years later from the op area, we did not suffere a single combat or accidental fatality, inspite of many combat injuries.

    I think these count for miracles.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree View Post
    Some -
    (a) One a patrol on a pitch dark night in mountains, the track disappeared and we were walking on a 45 degree slant for about 25 mtrs. Next day I came back to check. The track had washed out and we had walked on sheer rock at a slant, a slip would have landed any one of us at least 800 to 1000 feet down.

    (b) I was on leave when I heard that 2 men from my rif coy had been killed in an ambush. Before returning to my unit, I went to a very famous church dedicated to Our Lady, and prayed to keep the unit safe from fatalities. This was in April 1995, and when my unit moved out 2 1/2 years later from the op area, we did not suffere a single combat or accidental fatality, inspite of many combat injuries.

    I think these count for miracles.
    Well if it works for you m8 , great , and wherever you go may your particular God go with you .
    Last edited by tankie; 16 Jul 12, at 11:44.

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  14. #239
    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankie View Post

    There are so many different effects that one can reasonably wonder if they are indeed UFOs. One looks like an aircraft breaking the sound barrier. One I've seen; sun breaking through horizontally swirling clouds; looked eerie, but eventually broke up.

    Anyway, here's one explanation.

    Astronomical Causes of UFOs
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

  15. #240
    Banned tankie's Avatar
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    I understand JAD but some stuff is scary


    Check this guys vids ?

    http://youtu.be/Rudq1bC2cQI
    Last edited by tankie; 16 Jul 12, at 22:28.

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