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Serbia-the autopsy report

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  • The borderline outpost "Kosare" after being taken by the KLA, during the Operation Arrow,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1epwF...eature=related

    Wesley Clark on CNN
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgmosqHrSwI

    Bill Clinton announcing the start of bombing:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rusF4OJzGbo

    KLA 120mm mortar firing at Yugoslavian army positions during the Operation Arrow.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE2iV...eature=related
    Last edited by Versus; 02 Sep 11,, 21:00.

    Comment


    • Sometimes I wonder, was this really necessary?. Could it be different?. War in the former Yugoslavia was damaging beyond physical damage. It appears that it was unavoidable.
      My first contact with nationalism happened in 1985, while we were at the summer camp in Istra,today's Croatia. I wanted to by an ice cream and the guy whom was selling the ice cream said that he has none. I've walked away and as I turned my head, I saw him selling ice cream to other kids. I've returned and asked again and he again said that there is no ice cream. Than as I was standing some kids from Croatia came and he sold the ice cream to them. As he was opening the refrigerator I wanted to show to him that there is ice cream there, he slammed the doors and said trough his teeth that there is NO ice cream.
      I went to our tent and thought about it. It became clear to me that there is no ice cream for me cause I am from Belgrade,cause I was Serb and on that day I've made a drawing with Zagreb, the capital of Croatia burning. I was afraid that my parents might saw the drawing so torn that page from my sketching book and threw it into the garbage.
      Next year, I told my parents that I don't want to go to Croatia and we went to the Montenegro instead. The family we were camping, which was also from Belgrade, continued to go Croatia for two more years until their car tires were cut with the knife. I remember that day, when they came and told us what has happened to them. My mother said that those whom did it were hooligans and my father said that too. But I knew that they wasn't hooligans, they were nationalists. In the following years, the city of Zagreb will be shelled by the Croatian Serbs and the knifes from tires would go under the throats of unfortunate ones.
      When the first pictures from Slovenia came, when I saw the Slovenian Territorial defense units wearing US army uniforms and JNA soldiers wearing the military green, they looked like they were from two worlds and different times. The Slovenian TO looked like it formed in 1990 and JNA looked like communist partizans. Like relic. It was clear to me that they will lose. And they did. When the war in Croatia broke out, looking the footage from the front lines, the JNA soldiers and the Croatian Serbs that rebelled were often drunk, dirty, with beards and had hand painted insignia on their helmets. They looked like ragtag army and it was clear to me that they are going to lose. And they did. In Bosnia, Bosnian Serbs were more ready, they had their insignia patches but than despite all their superiority in fire power, they were beaten.
      In Kosovo, when we came, there was a howitzer within the base, firing at the KLA positions outside the city. I knew that we are going to lose. I never believed in victory or all that story about how Serbia is great and how God is on our side. It looked so backwards so out of touch with reality. The only thing that mattered to me was to go trough this with as less damage as possible.

      Today's Serbia is a country on the verge of collapse. It looks like house of cards and the wind is getting stronger. Same forces are at work, same ideas. It looks like suffocating tar pit that sucks the life out of every living thing, human, animal or plant.
      In 2000 our national debt was 4 billion in 2011 is 43 billion and nothing has changed. Except that today we have more stray dogs than ever and that there is almost no farmers in the villages. Vojvodina is marching strong toward its independence, backed by Hungary and Croatia. In Muslim populated Sanjak although Muslims are not majority there is growing secession movement. Southern Serbia is a powder keg. Police can't do anything there, its presence is just a marketing stunt, they are patrolling along side smugglers, criminals and can't arrest them. Upholding the Serbian law would upset the ethnic tensions. Same story as it was in Kosovo in the 70es. And the result will be the same in 10 years.

      I wonder, if Milosevic was a problem for so long, how come that 1 million Serbs that were protesting in Belgrade in 2000 were able to take him down. If the population of Albanians in Kosovo was 1.5 million in 1989 when Milosevic suppressed them why they didn't joined the Serbian opposition in 1990 after first election fraud. If the human rights were the issue and Milosevic's regime was equally oppressive toward Serbs as well as it was toward Albanians, why they never joined and stopped him? Imagine Serbian opposition and Albanians marching together against Milosevic that is more than 3 million men, they could stop the war right in the 1990. Croatia and Bosnia would be saved and Kosovo too. None of this would happen. Albanians knew how brutal Milosevic could be, he oppressed them for 5 years. If the better life, human rights and democracy were the issues, both Albanians on Kosovo and Serbia had the same common ground, why they never joined? The answer is simple. It was never about those things. It was always about independence and secession from the day one. Albanians were not opposing Milosevic, they always were opposing to Serbia and they always will. Kosovo independence is a victory for a national ethically clean state that has been won after almost century of constant fighting. That war was fought in Serbian Kingdom, in Kingdom of Yugoslavia, in the Socialistic Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and in Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, some times in secret some times in the open. But it was always there.

      It was always with us and still is.
      Last edited by Versus; 02 Sep 11,, 19:12.

      Comment


      • Versus what political movement would have won in 1990 if they formed an alliance with the Kosovars?

        I know that over here the party who won the elections refused to form a government with party of the Macedonian Albanians and they were in opposition for 8 years ;)

        We (Orthodox Christians - Serbs, Macedonians and Montenegrin) were intoxicated with a cult that ALL of the Albanians are bad.

        Now we have a process of lustration over here (a bit too late imv) and you'd be surprised of he list of Albanians who cooperated with the former security structures.
        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

        Comment


        • Albanians are not bad at all, I never said that they are. But I do think that they can't be incorporated into any system. They will uphold it as long as it works for them, the minute they don't need it they will attack it. This is simply cause they do not adopt to the state they live in, they adopt the state to serve them, since they have the goal and they all working toward that goal. I don't have the problem with that, I accept them as such, they are really specific and special.

          Comment


          • As I said before, Serbia has always been seen as the Russia's protege. Trough out its history it grew enough to be a problem but it never gained strength to be a solution. It always had to rely on foreign support to maintain itself. It was lead by the emotions and epic and it never took a serious effort to reconstruct its history, to separate fact form emotions. This lead to the formation of belief that it can't exist without emotions. Therefore constant struggle was needed to keep it in a coherent form. It needed the conflict,since the mythical role that it assumed and understood, always demanded the cause to preserve its unity. In the first stage that was redeeming the historical rights aka rebuilding the old empire. In the second stage it was for the higher purpose of uniting southern Slavs and in its third and final stage it was protecting the very origin of its mythical existence , the Kosovo. Serbia starts and ends there but its center isn't there its center is in Belgrade. The shift from land based, peasant driven, epic driven state, to city based,bubblehead fancy dandy,trader mentality, mythical driven state is the true structure of Serbia. The true inner tension of Serbia is a conflict between urban and rural. Between peasants whom own the land, they are in contact with land, whom sacrifice themselves for the land, they life of the land and city folk,whom live of their shops where they sell and trade, rent their fancy apartments and indulge a life style lead by something for nothing principle. Serbia sold its basis, the agriculture, to the city in order to get a better life.

            Just like the US, the detached from reality wall street traders whom sold the US to China, by selling its basis, the industrial manufacture, in order to get a better life. It is the same process only scale is different.

            But in all this, ones whom hold to their base will survive at the end. That is why the Germany is “rising”. But Germany isn't rising, it always stood there, others are falling instead. That is why Germans feel in love with Albanians, cause for them the base is “Deutschland über alles “ just as for Albanians “Albania über alles”is. And for the rest of us, we can freely have all the gadgets we want, we can have Wall Street,Raptor, Ipod, big dreams,capitalism vs communism, Space program,Belgrade metro,fancy Belgrade's 500 million euros bridge that lead's to nowhere,Kosovo...It simply won't do.

            There are some things that simply are not for sale.
            Last edited by Versus; 03 Sep 11,, 09:32.

            Comment


            • From reality lead by fiction, to fiction that is lead by reality.
              Serbian soldier and officer from the first world war and today Serbian soldiers.
              Attached Files

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                Versus what political movement would have won in 1990 if they formed an alliance with the Kosovars?

                I know that over here the party who won the elections refused to form a government with party of the Macedonian Albanians and they were in opposition for 8 years ;)

                We (Orthodox Christians - Serbs, Macedonians and Montenegrin) were intoxicated with a cult that ALL of the Albanians are bad.

                Now we have a process of lustration over here (a bit too late imv) and you'd be surprised of he list of Albanians who cooperated with the former security structures.
                There was one interview by sky news I think or BBC that asked late Ibrahim Rugova,I think, why they don't join the Belgrade protestors against Milosevic and he replied something like our goals are not the same and we don't see anyone in the Belgrade opposition that will support our cause. Everybody knew what was really going on, everybody knew that this whole slaughter house wasn't about ideologies but the creation of national ethnically cleansed states. The only one whom failed to realize this was Slobodan Milosevic. It is true that the Serbs have committed the most of the crimes based on ethnic hate, there is no doubt about that but that is not the point. The point is that the others would do the same if the Serbs were not stronger at the time. There is historical proof for that, the WW1 and WW2.

                Comment


                • Hold on a bit.By what criteria do you measure crimes?This things tend to get murky,that's why we need to speak the same language. Also,what about numbers.I understand there are incomplete or biased numbers,when it's not blatant propaganda in this regard,but we need a starting point.
                  Those who know don't speak
                  He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Versus View Post
                    There was one interview by sky news I think or BBC that asked late Ibrahim Rugova,I think, why they don't join the Belgrade protestors against Milosevic and he replied something like our goals are not the same and we don't see anyone in the Belgrade opposition that will support our cause. Everybody knew what was really going on, everybody knew that this whole slaughter house wasn't about ideologies but the creation of national ethnically cleansed states. The only one whom failed to realize this was Slobodan Milosevic. It is true that the Serbs have committed the most of the crimes based on ethnic hate, there is no doubt about that but that is not the point. The point is that the others would do the same if the Serbs were not stronger at the time. There is historical proof for that, the WW1 and WW2.
                    Being the "the weaker" side of the conflict has nothing to do with the ability to find civilians to torture them.

                    Besides the weaker side won huh
                    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                      Hold on a bit.By what criteria do you measure crimes?This things tend to get murky,that's why we need to speak the same language. Also,what about numbers.I understand there are incomplete or biased numbers,when it's not blatant propaganda in this regard,but we need a starting point.
                      Mihais, how do you measure crimes?

                      Is there any Richter or new EU-scale or will we use Geiger?
                      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                      Comment


                      • Usually by counting bodies,ruined homes,sometimes including bonus points for the way one perishes.Being shot is better than being hacked to death,or at least that's what I'd choose if it comes to this.Morbid thing indeed.
                        Those who know don't speak
                        He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                        Comment


                        • OK, what time period we are taking about?
                          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                            Usually by counting bodies,ruined homes,sometimes including bonus points for the way one perishes.Being shot is better than being hacked to death,or at least that's what I'd choose if it comes to this.Morbid thing indeed.
                            If you want to use that scale than it goes something like this.
                            If the criteria is the number of killed,Serbs are on the first place,Croatians second,Albanians third and the Bosnian Muslim fourth. If the criteria is brutality than the first place is Albanians,second Croatians,third Bosnians and fourth Serbs. The bigger the hate the more violent crimes happen and the message needed to said more clearly.
                            Last edited by Versus; 03 Sep 11,, 11:36.

                            Comment


                            • The dead are dead, there is nothing that can be done with that. The Hague tribunal was concerned with the numerical value when it "measured" the weight of crimes. On the other hand, Serbs measured the way how Serbs were killed, the brutality of the act. It is bizarre way to think.
                              My primary concern isn't what has happened, my primary concern is fear that, again, Serbia will not be able to comprehend the new threat that is looming on the horizon. That new thing that is coming, doesn't care about nationality, race,age,sex or political belief. It kills without remorse or compassion. If Serbia decides to keep the sentiments and continues to push the Kosovo fable or the Eu fable it is doomed. None of these two roads will lead it into brighter future. It is too late for Kosovo and it is too late for EU. The peak oil is here.

                              Comment


                              • That goes for all Yugo.But here we're talking Kosovo specifically.So while Serbs may have the bigger score overall,that is divided against Bosnian Muslims,Croats and Albanians.
                                A thing I never considered before is how the numbers fare when combining the Serb victims of the three above.They may have not been formal allies,but all of them had the Serbs as enemies,thus they were friends in that regard alone.

                                Quality is quality,you can't deny that to freedom fighters in the UCK.


                                Edit-Let's forget about Hague.I doubt anyone there takes it seriously and I doubt any potential killer is deterred by it.Either he thinks he's strong enough to avoid capture or he'll sacrifice his freedom for the greater good by cleansing the enemy.


                                Btw,love the digital cammo pattern the SAJ guys wear above.
                                Last edited by Mihais; 03 Sep 11,, 12:06.
                                Those who know don't speak
                                He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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