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Thread: Serbia-the autopsy report

  1. #1276
    Rickshaw Professional Senior Contributor Pedicabby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    Does the WAB's server act's funny only in my case or its a bigger issue?
    Its a bit of a mess for me aswell.

  2. #1277
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    The old wounds still fester to this day as the narrative established during the 19th century still lives. Can't wait to finish this agony of a project and return to the morgue.
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  3. #1278
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Good, you returned. I need to re-read this thread and was wondering whether you agree with the underlined bit below

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Pakistan has no comparison to Yugoslavia. After Tito, you had a strongman, Milosevic, who wanted to break up Yugoslavia. You have no such person in Pakistan.
    Did Milosevic want to break up Yugoslavia ? i though he wanted a greater Serbia

    It stems from a what if discussion we're having where comparison of Pakistan is made with Yugoslavia and whether the financial collapse it faced post end of the cold war accelerated its breakup. Economy can by but one factor. The centrifugal political forces would be stronger catalysts for the breakup.

    Next is the below

    Yugoslavia like Pakistan was an artificial entity created out of smaller countries. How did those countries pick up the pieces and move on. I don't think Versus has gone into that in his thread.
    Post breakup what helped those countries to survive. EU i suppose.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Sep 19, at 11:55.

  4. #1279
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Good, you returned. I need to re-read this thread and was wondering whether you agree with the underlined bit below



    Did Milosevic want to break up Yugoslavia ? i though he wanted a greater Serbia

    It stems from a what if discussion we're having where comparison of Pakistan is made with Yugoslavia and whether the financial collapse it faced post end of the cold war accelerated its breakup. Economy can by but one factor. The centrifugal political forces would be stronger catalysts for the breakup.

    Next is the below



    Post breakup what helped those countries to survive. EU i suppose.
    It is much much more complicated than this. Problem is that there are layers of narratives that engulf this whole mess and often one contradict the other. It is an intricate, bobby trapped web of various interests that often go hand in hand with one another and yet in other circumstances conflict one another. So does the "Greater Serbia" narrative, where Milosevic wanted to break up the Yugoslavia and create "Greater Serbia" by force and trough ethnic cleansing and genocide. That is the official narrative that lies on the continuum of the 19th century narrative where Serbia is a back door or a trap door trough which the tentacles of Russian interest will creep in. From what I was able to gather, this narrative is a false one but it cannot be explained in a single sentence nor it is possible to understand it without understanding the overall the much wider setting and events. To put it simply, this is not an isolated, genuine event yet it is a part of a much larger story that stretches itself trough out the ages.
    But to give you an somewhat short answer, in essence, Milosevic was a psychopathic narcissist that hijacked the idea of "Greater Serbia" and used it to manipulate Serbs to go to war so that he could stay in power. The very idea of Greater Serbia is an alien construct, kind of a mutation of idea of Serbian state, that was implemented at the end of first half of 19th century with the "Draft document". Or to put it in a more graphical sense, Milosevic tired to control mutated Serbs into doing his bidding so that he could stay in power by using the same old mutagen that made Serbs into mutants during the 19th century by making them to mutate even more into abominations that were so useful for the Western agenda during the 90es.

  5. #1280
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    This document is one of the big ones in this story but we have a way to go to reach it
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  6. #1281
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    These are the key players from the Serbian side, during the breakup.

    Jovan Raskovic,was the first leader of the Croatian Serbs, later replaced by Milan Babic and Milan Martic. Radovan Karadzic was the leader of Bosnian Serbs. However both of them were the creations of Veselin Savic. But nothing can come close to the Savic's ultimate creation, which was the Slobodan Milosevic. Veselin Savic is the creator of Slobodan Milosevic as a brand,he is the creator of his persona as Jung would say. These three men were the progenitors of our demise during the 90es and they did the job masterfully, which shouldn't come as a surprise as all three of them were- psychiatrists.

    As always, in itself, they follow the line of destructors that the mutagen implemented at the core of Serbian identity constantly produces.

    Seen from this angle, its pretty easy to untangle the knot. Slobodan Milosevic was leaning towards American side or to be more exact, trough his ties from the Wall street he was totally aligned with the Republican side of the American discourse. However his wife, was an old Soviet Asset and aligned with the defeated communists in Russia. Bear in mind that the Milosevic supported that failed coup against Yeltsin. Howerver, when the American communists took over the US, aka when the Clinton's took the office and their counter part in Russia, Yeltsin was in for the game, Milosevic was left to hang and dry. When the American communists took the White House, they started to virtue signal to the Middle East that they are not against Islam by supporting Islamist in the Balkans and punishing the big bad wolf aka Slobodan Milosevic whom represented the regressive, backward way of thinking. They used him as a unifying factor to scare the Europeans and make them to shed the European nationalism in order to prop up the EU super state agenda. In the same time, the EU communists wanted a constant supply of new votes in the form of open border immigration and all that virtue signaling form the 90es was about to pay off in the form of millions third world rapists flooding the Europe nowadays. Buy removing Milosevic, the flood gates from the Middle East have been opened and by removing Qaddafi the flood gates from Africa were opened as well.

    Everything would go fine and dandy, but the structures that were defeated during the 90es in the US, recovered and in one decisive blow, turned the tide with Trump's election.
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    Last edited by Versus; 16 Sep 19, at 10:42.

  7. #1282
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    It is much much more complicated than this. Problem is that there are layers of narratives that engulf this whole mess and often one contradict the other. It is an intricate, bobby trapped web of various interests that often go hand in hand with one another and yet in other circumstances conflict one another. So does the "Greater Serbia" narrative, where Milosevic wanted to break up the Yugoslavia and create "Greater Serbia" by force and trough ethnic cleansing and genocide. That is the official narrative that lies on the continuum of the 19th century narrative where Serbia is a back door or a trap door trough which the tentacles of Russian interest will creep in.
    Here you are, broadly speaking, agreeing with what OOE said


    From what I was able to gather, this narrative is a false one but it cannot be explained in a single sentence nor it is possible to understand it without understanding the overall the much wider setting and events. To put it simply, this is not an isolated, genuine event yet it is a part of a much larger story that stretches itself trough out the ages.
    Oh!

    But to give you an somewhat short answer, in essence, Milosevic was a psychopathic narcissist that hijacked the idea of "Greater Serbia" and used it to manipulate Serbs to go to war so that he could stay in power. The very idea of Greater Serbia is an alien construct, kind of a mutation of idea of Serbian state, that was implemented at the end of first half of 19th century with the "Draft document". Or to put it in a more graphical sense, Milosevic tired to control mutated Serbs into doing his bidding so that he could stay in power by using the same old mutagen that made Serbs into mutants during the 19th century by making them to mutate even more into abominations that were so useful for the Western agenda during the 90es.
    What ever Milosevic did afterwards he was still using the greater Serbia narrative as his motivation. Isn't it ?

    He wanted to replace Yugoslavia with a greater Serbia. The means justified the ends.

  8. #1283
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Here you are, broadly speaking, agreeing with what OOE said



    Oh!


    What ever Milosevic did afterwards he was still using the greater Serbia narrative as his motivation. Isn't it ?

    He wanted to replace Yugoslavia with a greater Serbia. The means justified the ends.
    No. Problem is that the OOE considers the concept of Greater Serbia as a the Serbian desire or a driver so to speak, that comes from the inside of Serbian national discourse. That the idea of Greater Serbia is Serbian idea. But it is not, the idea of Greater Serbia is an alien construct designed to prevent the creation of Serbian state.
    Last edited by Versus; 16 Sep 19, at 12:18.

  9. #1284
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    No. Problem is that the OOE considers the concept of Greater Serbia as a the Serbian desire or a driver so to speak, that comes from the inside of Serbian national discourse. That the idea of Greater Serbia is Serbian idea. But it is not, the idea of Greater Serbia is an alien construct designed to prevent the creation of Serbian state.
    ok, let's leave the motivation for greater serbia idea aside.

    Milosevic wanted to break up Yugoslavia. Would you agree to that.

  10. #1285
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    ok, let's leave the motivation for greater serbia idea aside.

    Milosevic wanted to break up Yugoslavia. Would you agree to that.
    It is difficult to say. Milosevic wanted power and was obsessed with it, so I don't see any reason to break up a country that you want to rule because, than you don't have anything to rule over. On that level, Milosevic didn't wanted to break up Yugoslavia, he wanted to rule it. I mean, this narrative is valid if you accept the narrative that he was officially elected president of Serbia, that Serbia is a sovereign state and that Serbia had national goals, than this narrative would stick.

  11. #1286
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    It is difficult to say. Milosevic wanted power and was obsessed with it, so I don't see any reason to break up a country that you want to rule because, than you don't have anything to rule over.
    Right, this is what threw me with OOE's comment.

    On that level, Milosevic didn't wanted to break up Yugoslavia, he wanted to rule it. I mean, this narrative is valid if you accept the narrative that he was officially elected president of Serbia, that Serbia is a sovereign state and that Serbia had national goals, than this narrative would stick.
    I don't fully understand this part. If he is already elected president of Serbia does he not have powers over the rest of Yugoslavia ?

    Capital of Yugoslavia is Belgrade which is in Serbia.

    Put another way in what ways were his powers over the rest of Yugoslavia limited ?

    I've heard some people say his removal of autonomy of Kosovo & Volvodgna precipitated the breakup.

    Sorry, i can only come at this from simple points of view.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Sep 19, at 14:04.

  12. #1287
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Or to expand it even further, the thesis that Milosevic wanted to break up Yugoslavia in order to make a Great Serbia out of its parts would be a valid thesis if following false narratives were true:

    1. Yugoslavia was a joint wish of all nations living in it.
    2. Yugoslavia was an Serbian idea.
    3. Serbian desire to dominate other nations out of which Yugoslavia was made is the primary cause of their resentment towards Serbs and reason for their opposition.
    4. Serbian nationalism provoked nationalism in other nations that were part of Yugoslavia and that lead to conflict.
    5. Greater Serbia is an ultimate goal of Serbian nation
    6. Idea of Greater Serbia is genuine Serbian idea.

  13. #1288
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Right, this is what threw me with OOE's comment.



    I don't fully understand this part. If he is already elected president of Serbia does he not have powers over the rest of Yugoslavia ?

    Capital of Yugoslavia is Belgrade which is in Serbia.

    Put another way in what ways were his powers over the rest of Yugoslavia limited ?

    I've heard some people say his removal of autonomy of Kosovo & Volvodgna precipitated the breakup.

    Sorry, i can only come at this from simple points of view.
    The official narrative says that Milosevic was using the Serbian population in Croatia and Bosnia as factor to destabilize both Croatia and Bosnia and the Federal Army to gain power and subject both Croatia and Bosnia to his will. In other words, by supporting Serbian minorities in Croatia and Bosnia, using them as proxies and trough the help of Federal Army, he wanted to take away chunks of territories of both Croatia and Bosnia and unite them with Serbia, in the name of Greater Serbia and Serbian nationalism. How ludicrous this narrative is, the fact speaks, that the man whom organized Serbian rebellion in Croatia was himself, an Croat, Franko Simatovic. So you have a Croat organizing Serbs in Croatia to fight against Croatia in the name of Greater Serbia. To make it even more insane, he did that with the help of Australian mercenary of Serbian origin, Dragan Vasiljkovic. Same goes for Srebrenica Muslim commander, Naser Oric, whom himself was an Milosevic's security detail. He was his body guard.
    Last edited by Versus; 16 Sep 19, at 14:27.

  14. #1289
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    The official narrative says that Milosevic was using the Serbian population in Croatia and Bosnia as factor to destabilize both Croatia and Bosnia and the Federal Army to gain power and subject both Croatia and Bosnia to his will. In other words, by supporting Serbian minorities in Croatia and Bosnia, using them as proxies and trough the help of Federal Army, he wanted to take away chunks of territories of both Croatia and Bosnia and unite them with Serbia, in the name of Greater Serbia and Serbian nationalism.
    That is how people from outside the region begin to understand what happened there.

    When you say official, who are you referring to ?

    How ludicrous this narrative is, the fact speaks, that the man whom organized Serbian rebellion in Croatia was himself, an Croat, Franko Simatovic. So you have a Croat organizing Serbs in Croatia to fight against Croatia in the name of Greater Serbia.

    To make it even more insane, he did that with the help of Australian mercenary of Serbian origin, Dragan Vasiljkovic.

    Same goes for Srebrenica Muslim commander, Naser Oric, whom himself was an Milosevic's security detail. He was his body guard.
    It seems they are traitors to their people but followers of the Serbian way. They are opportunists. They see which way the wind is blowing and take advantage of it.

  15. #1290
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    That is how people from outside the region begin to understand what happened there.

    When you say official, who are you referring to ?


    It seems they are traitors to their people but followers of the Serbian way. They are opportunists. They see which way the wind is blowing and take advantage of it.
    There is an official picture of the causes and the events that happened in the Balkan's during the 90'es that has been established in the World as the truth. That is the official version or the official narrative. No, they are not traitors but members of a secret super structure called the Federal Secret Service that actually facilitated the whole mess.
    Last edited by Versus; 16 Sep 19, at 16:44.

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