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Thread: Serbia-the autopsy report

  1. #61
    Senior Contributor 1979's Avatar
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    the conclusion.
    J'ai en marre.

  2. #62
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1979 View Post
    the conclusion.
    In a technical sense it is unclear whom ordered the assassination. The ones whom performed the assassination are discovered but the ones whom order it were not. My personal guessing was that the man whom ordered the assassination was Slobodan Milosevic. It was his personal revenge and he had a lots of supporters whom believed in his cause.

  3. #63
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Rise of the ultra nationalists

    With Milosevic in jail and on trial and Zoran Djindjic dead, Yugoslavia was leaderless and the rage was boiling. Vojislav Kostunica, the Milosevic successor, became the prime minister in 2004. He was the representative of the bubble head of the ultra nationalists but in a most destructive passive form. Although that he liked to be seen by the others as a Charles de Gaule, conservative but cooperative he wasn't not even close to de Gaule. What he meant to say by that was this. He saw the Serbia occupied by West. After his opponent Zoran Djindjic was assassinated he came to true free Serbia, the Serbia of nationalists. So it was something like second coming of the “true” savior. The messiah had descended.
    Under his rule the corruption and nationalism flourished. If you want to picture him vividly, try to picture him in a black robe, wondering trough the dark castle and petting monsters. Under his rule the nationalism exploded, the antisemitism also rose and Serbia once again. He used the national feelings boosted by the events in Kosovo in March 17th 2004 and continued to ride on that wave all the way till 2008 elections came. Under is rule, Embassies were burned, Mosques torched and the violent gangs got foothold in the public as the true Serbs.

    His time will be remembered as counter strike to the efforts that Zoran Djindjic made to propel the Serbia towards EU.

  4. #64
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1979 View Post
    is that sarcasm or not ?
    Can't be since it's the truth.To be fair,not all the West,only the factions that dismantled Yugoslavia.In this case,the Western establishment.

    I'll be as brief as possible.First,I think Versus has done a great job.However I think he missed a few things.First,Garasanin plan is not as unique as it my seem.Granted,not all European nations at the time formalized a concept in such a way.But whatever Serbs did was part of a larger frame,marked by actions of secret societies,national liberators&unifiers.What Serbia did in Bosnia,Romania did in Transylvania,albeit with more success and in a more discreet manner.Garasanin plan is in fact a plan for the union of the southern Slavs,on the same level with Italian union,German etc... So calling Serbia a nation with on a mission may be right,but it was far from unique.

    Second,I think Versus misses the point that Yugoslavia could have been alive and well without foreign intervention.In fact,where Serbia&Milo sinned was ignoring the potential of the outside factors to alter the situation.There was an internal drive to secession,but before that they were encouraged to do so from outside.Yes,the Serbs knew about these efforts and without them,the JNA would have won in Croatia and Bosnia.
    The climax of the intervention was of course Kosovo.That was a blatant aggression,period.All the mumbo-jumbo about refugees is just hot air.You don't want refugees,you don't support those that start a war.That means you don't train and arm them.
    Once it may be a mistake.Twice it may be a coincidence.Thrice it's war.For reasons that escape me the Western establishment declared war on the Serbs and reduced them to their present status and influence,which is not much.I refuse to accept humanitarian ''reasons'',so let's not even try to go there.Why the Western establishment did what it did is the 1 mil$ question.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  5. #65
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Kristallnacht, march 2004

    In the eruption of violence that happened in March 17th 2004, more than 4000 Kosovo Serbs whom returned to their homes in Kosovo were cleansed for the second time. This event is known as crystal night of 2004. From the March 16th to the March 22nd 2004, Albanians destroyed 35 churches and monasteries, most of them dating from the 14th Century. Many graveyards were defiled and remains of the burred Serbs were taken out and scattered all around. The overall number of 50.000 Albanians were involved in these events. The trigger was the discovery of three Albanian children whom had drowned in the river of Ibar. The Albanians accused that Serbs threw the children into the water, but later investigation showed that it was tragic accident.
    Last edited by Versus; 30 Aug 11, at 14:41.

  6. #66
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Can't be since it's the truth.To be fair,not all the West,only the factions that dismantled Yugoslavia.In this case,the Western establishment.

    I'll be as brief as possible.First,I think Versus has done a great job.However I think he missed a few things.First,Garasanin plan is not as unique as it my seem.Granted,not all European nations at the time formalized a concept in such a way.But whatever Serbs did was part of a larger frame,marked by actions of secret societies,national liberators&unifiers.What Serbia did in Bosnia,Romania did in Transylvania,albeit with more success and in a more discreet manner.Garasanin plan is in fact a plan for the union of the southern Slavs,on the same level with Italian union,German etc... So calling Serbia a nation with on a mission may be right,but it was far from unique.

    Second,I think Versus misses the point that Yugoslavia could have been alive and well without foreign intervention.In fact,where Serbia&Milo sinned was ignoring the potential of the outside factors to alter the situation.There was an internal drive to secession,but before that they were encouraged to do so from outside.Yes,the Serbs knew about these efforts and without them,the JNA would have won in Croatia and Bosnia.
    The climax of the intervention was of course Kosovo.That was a blatant aggression,period.All the mumbo-jumbo about refugees is just hot air.You don't want refugees,you don't support those that start a war.That means you don't train and arm them.
    Once it may be a mistake.Twice it may be a coincidence.Thrice it's war.For reasons that escape me the Western establishment declared war on the Serbs and reduced them to their present status and influence,which is not much.I refuse to accept humanitarian ''reasons'',so let's not even try to go there.Why the Western establishment did what it did is the 1 mil$ question.
    All good things to the ones whom wait.

  7. #67
    Senior Contributor 1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Second,I think Versus misses the point that Yugoslavia could have been alive and well without foreign intervention.In fact,where Serbia&Milo sinned was ignoring the potential of the outside factors to alter the situation.There was an internal drive to secession,but before that they were encouraged to do so from outside.Yes,the Serbs knew about these efforts and without them,the JNA would have won in Croatia and Bosnia.
    The climax of the intervention was of course Kosovo.That was a blatant aggression,period.All the mumbo-jumbo about refugees is just hot air.You don't want refugees,you don't support those that start a war.That means you don't train and arm them.
    Once it may be a mistake.Twice it may be a coincidence.Thrice it's war.For reasons that escape me the Western establishment declared war on the Serbs and reduced them to their present status and influence,which is not much.I refuse to accept humanitarian ''reasons'',so let's not even try to go there.Why the Western establishment did what it did is the 1 mil$ question.
    Mihais i have no interest in knowing why they did it or who started it.
    what done is done , either you cut your loses and move on
    or keep fighting until the end.

    the Serbs did neither.
    J'ai en marre.

  8. #68
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1979 View Post
    Mihais i have no interest in knowing why they did it or who started it.
    what done is done , either you cut your loses and move on
    or keep fighting until the end.

    the Serbs did neither.
    Yep, that is the point.

  9. #69
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1979 View Post
    Mihais i have no interest in knowing why they did it or who started it.
    what done is done , either you cut your loses and move on
    or keep fighting until the end.

    the Serbs did neither.
    To be fair,only the first paragraph was an answer to your question.My apologies,I shoud have made it clearer.
    Also,the end hasn't come yet to this oddyssey.Stay tuned for the next episode.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  10. #70
    Senior Contributor 1979's Avatar
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    i think the next episode did not occur yet.
    J'ai en marre.

  11. #71
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Stalemate, negotiations and the northern crisis.

    The relationship between Belgrade and Pristina ceased to exist. But the relationship between Belgrade and northern Kosovo continued. With the city of Kosovska Mitrovica and its northern part.
    Since the relationship between Albanians and Serbs are such that they have no connection and that hate is total, other ways were needed to make Kosovo function. So the only natural connection emerged, trough smuggling and black market. Serbs in northern Kosovo became wealthy from the black market and Serbia installed the parallel institutions in the northern part. In other words, Serbia treats the Northern part of Kosovo as the whole Kosovo and uses it to project its influence on Kosovo. It sees that as its asset in negotiations with the EU. So now, Pristina wants that to stop and that is the cause of the entire problem with the northern part.

  12. #72
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Sincerely Mihais and 1979 I am sick of this too but the material is here so in the next section I will go to the bottom of this. History and chronology is done, its time to get to work. The last part is conclusion and projection. After that....bring it on!!!

  13. #73
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    I'm waiting.I really enjoy your writing.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  14. #74
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    I am working on it, it will take a while

  15. #75
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    The Conclusion

    Why we fight.

    The Slobodan Milosevic rule, became the synonym for Serbs. It represented and still represents the synonym for trouble and intolerance. How many reports started with Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic, Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic...this and that. Yet, Slobodan Milosevic in reality, never was the president of Serbia nor the country that fought all wars in former Yugoslavia was called Serbia.
    It was always Yugoslavia. Official units from Yugoslavia never had insignia that points that they belong to Serbian armed forces. But they were constantly called Serbian forces. This is the problem.

    When you are engaged in ethnic conflict and ethnicity is everything to you, it is appropriate to have ethnic armed forces. Since you adore your own ethnicity and consider every other ethnicity an enemy it is natural that your armed forces consist out of members of your ethnicity. When Slovenia declared independence it created Slovenian TO or Slovenian territorial defense that fought JNA. When Croatia declared independence it created its armed forces that were called Croatian Army, Bosnia had Bosnian Federation Army and KLA was Kosovo Liberation Army. Only national Serbian formations were VRSK (Repubilc of Srpska Kraina Army) consisted out of Croatian Serbs and VRS (Army of Republika Srpksa) consisted out of Bosnian Serbs. The Croatian former President Franjo Tudjman wore military uniform, former Bosnian Federation President wore military uniform. Both, Croatian Serbs and Bosnian Serbs leaders and commanders wore military uniforms. Milosevic never wore military uniform.
    Slovenian TO which later became the Slovenian Army was recognized as official, Croatian Army was recognized as official, Bosnian Federation Army was recognized as official. Bosnian Serb Army was never recognized as official and Croatian Serb army also. They were paramilitary formations. The only recognized military formation on the other side was Yugoslavian army which never participated in Croatia or Bosnian conflict. Officially.

    Now this is not what it seems that it is, it is not justification, cause we all know what happened. My point is different. Slobodan Milosevic never believed in Serbian cause he believed in Yugoslavian idea, while Franjo Tudjman, Alija Izetbegovic and Hasim Taci believed in their causes. They had the clear picture and that is why they won. Who we are? Slovenians, Croatians, Bosnian Muslims, Albanians. For what we are fighting for? For Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. Who is our enemy? The Serbs. They all had the clear notion whom they are, for what they are fighting for and against whom they are fighting. We didn't. We fought to preserve Yugoslavia. Officially.

    This is the problem with communists. They don't understand the concept of a nation and nationality. They position themselves above nation and nationality, becoming the pan-national or in other words international. Milosevic fought for abstract idea all others fought for reality. Reality for all others was that the real shell was killing them. That was their reality. And since they were fighting for a real cause, by the real enemy they were able formulate real response. They had real fear because in reality you can win or lose, for real. As well as you can live or die for real. With ideas, well ideas are timeless. That is why Milosevic never planned anything or had a firm plan, why should he? His ideas are eternal.

    He confronted the others as ideological adversaries, he considered the idea of independent Slovenia,Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo an thereat. But independence is not an idea, it is reality. How it would look for a convict in jail to say, I have the idea that I am free and there fore I am free. Is he free or is he in jail? In jail.

    Therefore, Milosevic ignored reality and formed his policy based on fantasy. Who in the world would confront the West after the Berlin wall fell? For Milosevic war in Kosovo was the clash of ideologies. He as communist against the capitalists. I bet that he was reading Karl Marx in his shelter while hundreds of young men were dying at the border from cluster bombs, losing their arms and legs, eyes, being blown to bits. Just because he was determined to crush capitalism. On Serbia capitalism will break. He failed to notice that all around him everyone else was capitalist owning their private empires, banks, tv stations etc. That is why he called NATO bandits, just as north Vietnam called USAF air pirates.
    The west, what ever that means, had its moments too. He called him nationalist, because it saw the reality, the war in former Yugoslavia was a nationalistic conflict. Serbs as a nationalists were the problem and other nations suffered because of them. Because Serbian nationalism was stronger than Croatian, Bosnian and Albanian nationalism. And that is why West supported them. But that wasn't the reality, the Croatian,Bosnian,Slovenia and Albanian nationalism was far more superior than Serbian.
    Croats demonstrated that in WW1 and in WW2. Bosnian Muslims too, Albanians since the 19th century. Serbian nationalism is weak since it isn't the nationalism at all it is pan-national project, set up by the Ilija Garasanin's draft. I have to make a little break now, but I will continue later on.

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