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Thread: Serbia-the autopsy report

  1. #16
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    What puzzles me is that at one point Kosovo must have been predominantly occupied by ethnic Serbs... Where did they go?
    Well, due to the way how medieval Serbian society functioned most of them stayed in Kosovo, after the battle ended. The Serbian society wasn't actually a class society, it was more a strict cast society. The lowest cast consisted out of two groups, Sebres, the peasants whom were allowed to work on the land without the right to own it and Meropas class of peasants whom took care of the cattle. There is another view at this that states that all peasants were called Meropas and that their cast was called Sebres. While nobility was tasked for leading the state and march to war, these two classes were excluded form participating in wars. But in the times of war, their task was to go trough the battlefield once the battle was over and recover the equipment and the wounded. Since they were illiterate, the things they saw were placed into the poems, so this cast of people, actually became the one that recorded the events and thanks to them we were able to preserve the history. But since they were totally dependent of their masters, loosing the masters was like loosing their purpose for life, so there is a great deal of emotions involved in their descriptions. That is why those epic songs are so emotional, full of grief and sorrow.

    Most of the Serbian population from Kosovo went to exile, during the Great War of 1683-1699 when the Holly alliance of European Christians lead the counter attack on the advancing Ottomans. Those whom stayed, were either slaughtered, converted to Islam or became future exiles. What is known for sure is that from the 17th century, the Serbs in Kosovo are minority.
    There are records from that time that show the presence of Albanians but in what percentage and what were the relationships between them and the rest of the population is a bit unclear. From what I saw, during my deployment there, by analyzing the Albanian villages was that there is a very specific architectural blueprint of the villages it self. The typical Albanian village wasn't the village in the classical sense, it is more an union of two or more families and it is built like a small fort, with huge walls and the narrow street that runs trough it. The Albanian walls are well known type of architectural design, since combined with the narrow street they form a perfect bottle neck and a killing ground for the enemy. That is one of the reasons, why they were devastated so often. You simply can't take them out by any other mean. The way how they call themselves is also an indication toward mountain life style, since in Albanian they call themselves Shqiptar which means the ones whom speak clearly. Voice in a mythology is a sound and the sound is carried by the air and the air is a predominant element on the mountains. Also the analysis of the massacres they performed on the captured Serbs indicate a strong attachment to the cults of the mountain.

    So most likely the Albanians lived in the mountains while the Serbs populated the valleys and plains below. Than, when the Ottomans emerged, they removed the Serbs from the lands and Albanians descended from the mountains where they accepted the Islam and became the dominant ethnic group.
    But the role of religion in Albanian ethnic group is secondary, the primary principle is bloodline and ethnicity.

    I will get to that in a moment.
    Last edited by Versus; 26 Aug 11, at 08:47.

  2. #17
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    But Versus if you go through censuses in Kosovo you will notice sharp change in the late 60s, early 70s. Albanian population increased by ~50% in 1971 census the Serbs remained same. In 1981, Albanians raised another 35% serbs declined 10%. Same in 1991.

    Before '70s it was steady 25% Serbian population, or I am wrong?
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  3. #18
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    The Draft document was the longest kept secret document in Serbia. From the time it was written 1843,than presented to Garasanin and adopted in 1844 it wasn't made public in full form until 1967.
    However the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, manage to get the copy of it trough intelligence pretty much a year or so after it was classified and that find became on of the most prized asset that will be kept also a secret for a very long time. This actually sealed the stance of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire toward Serbs, which will remain hostile till the end.
    Since Austrian-Hungarian knew what were the Serbian true intentions, they were able to form a coherent and precise strategy to counter it. Trough Catholic Church and by various other means, the Austrian-Hungarian empire started to plant seeds for the ethnic hate since the Serbian plan worked on the ethnic base. They boosted the hate and paranoia toward Serbs in every area that was under their control, especially in Croatia,Bosnia and later on in Kosovo. The basic principle was brutally simple. If any of these nationalities wanted to secure their future they should not have Serbs as an ethnic group on their territory. So Austrian-Hungarian empire also boosted the nationalism among population but in a way that excludes any relationship with the Serbs. That was done with style and though, since the Austrian-Hungarian Empire was much richer than Serbia and could afford lush campaigns of that sort.
    Serbs totally unaware that their plan was broken, also supported the Croatian nationalism thinking that nationalism will be sufficient enough to win Croats to their side. With this set up, every support that Serbs gave to Croatians, was in fact counterproductive. Serbs concluded ,that, since they were the largest ethnic group and were the first ones to free themselves form the Imperial grasp, that that fact will give them the right to free others and that the others will be forever grateful for the freedom that Serbs gave to them. That they will respect them and honored them for that and that that positive relationship will be the basis for their dominance. Combined with a epic myth that promotes noble heroism, justice and all other superlatives that any normal hero has, Serbs were confident that they will be able to win Croat hearts. The Serbian nationalism like any nationalism lacked the proper ability to acknowledge the reality and to look at itself in a critical manner. If they were self aware, aware of their strength and weaknesses they would never attempt such effort, simply because Serbian culture needed proper scientific and unbiased revision, that would extract the essence of their identity and history from the emotional epic songs. But due to overall mood of the time, global dispositions and the lack of education, the Serbian elite, which was also weak and full of delusions of grandeur, took the opportunity anyhow. This will lead to rather primitive handling of a very delicate matter, where the primary tool for promoting idea of Serbs as liberators will be promoted and executed trough usage of brute force.

    Once the Serbs started fighting, any other nation that laid at their path, saw them as conquerors and not the liberators and developed the hostile feelings. Serbs straighten that feeling with their epic fantasy and delusions of grandeur, the thought that they are the first and chosen ones and that therefore they have the right to govern others. All others whom rebelled against them were considered lesser beings and were dealt with brute and excessive force.

    And with the Austrian-Hungarian psychological preparation and with Serbian primitive expansion the stage was set for eternal confrontation on the Balkan peninsula.

    The most devastating thing about the Draft was that it gave the Serbia a mission, thus making the Serbs a nation with higher and divine cause. There are few nations in the world that have this “sense of a mission” and Serbs are one of them. After analyzing the original documents, both the Garasanin and Zach, it was perfectly clear to me that the Draft was, it is and it will be, the primary cause of Serbian demise.
    Last edited by Versus; 26 Aug 11, at 10:07.

  4. #19
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    But Versus if you go through censuses in Kosovo you will notice sharp change in the late 60s, early 70s. Albanian population increased by ~50% in 1971 census the Serbs remained same. In 1981, Albanians raised another 35% serbs declined 10%. Same in 1991.

    Before '70s it was steady 25% Serbian population, or I am wrong?
    I will get to that, don't worry.

  5. #20
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    The fact that the Franjo Zach or Frantiseh Zach, a Czech national,Catholic was the one whom formulated the Serbian Orthodox national expansion, and not only that it formulated, he participated and lead actual battle formations on the battlefield, in a situation where national-state was the most modern solution, is enough to make you wander about Serbian national ideas and identity. It would be like some Soviet general getting the chief position in NORAD at the time of cold war. It is totally insane from a rational point of view.
    I am not a big believer in conspiracy theories so I don't see this as a conspiracy at all. I see it as natural side effect of lack of education, self awareness and self criticism. Simply, 500 years under Ottomans, suppressed expression of national identity and religious beliefs, combined with hazy history or identity created conditions for this course of events. The national boosting created the pressure that exploded into the public outrage that than transformed into the national movement than than lead to uprising and freedom. Since the pressure was so high, events and feelings simply continued on its own following the inertia. But since the culture foundation was weak, there wasn't a force tho hold the ground and the achieved goals soon melted once the fighting stopped. Serbia expanded itself way beyond the means of its culture and from that point, since it was unable to prevent the decay of influence in the territories it conquered it was forced to ask for assistance. That is how it got dependent on foreign influence and aid.
    That is how it got dependent on Russia, Austrian-Hungarian Empire,France,Germany, Great Britain and the USA. And as bigger powers have their own interests, Serbia placed itself into the position to follow those interests and adjust its own interests to the interests of powers it was bind to at the moment. The hunger for territories is again the normal side effect of being without land and the trauma left by the Ottoman conquests. If we are big enough it will be harder for others to consume us. So horizontal plane, the size and the quantity, the physical values, were priorities while the quality, the culture, the lifestyle or the spiritual, vertical values, was secondary. That is why the obsession with the territories was so great during the war times. And that is why territories were traded sine they were not actually the goal, but the mean for survival.

    So I think that the Serbian nationalism actually doesn't exist in a classical form. It can't exist since, after 500 years under Ottomans it got switched with the pan-nationalism. Regardless if some say that Serbs wanted to unite other Serbs or other nations. The very fact that word other, exist means that it is not single and whole and that other parts are needed to make it whole. That feeling of being incomplete, to lack something is a very heavy burden to have. That gaping hole in the identity is another way to describe the historical-discontinuity. That is why Serbs often quote the infamous historical right to own this and that. History is time so what Serbs are trying to piece together is exactly that, the proof of their identity trough time, or continuity. The identity.
    But as I said, Serbs have the problem with time. It was no wonder how the Garasanin Draft was formed.
    Garasanin was a well educated, rich bubble head, a part of Serbian sensibility that lived in the urban areas. The trendy Serb. He simply wanted to fill that gap with most modern solution that was on the market. He was a son of trader, and his romantic but most of all, secured and comfortable life gave him the ability to wonder into the world of philosophical ideas, like a balloon filled with national emotions, he soared high. He never actually went across Serbia, met the local population. That was too profane for him. He was the intelligentsia, the nobility, the special one tasked with higher goals to enlighten the pitiful,stinky peasants.
    I can picture him clearly in his villa, after returning from the fox hunt with his hounds, meeting the Frantiseh Zach whom brought latest magazines, new exciting books and ideas. Aahh, the modernity which will transform this backward land and make it great once again. As they gorged on lush meal they took a good glass of vine and discussed about great things. Than the Zach pulled out the plan, the plan from a Polish Prince...OHHHHH, WOOOW....SWEEEETTTT....AWESOME DUDE.....with this plan, Serbia will be in the orbit of Mars in a jiffy. I just need to make some changes...humm lets seee. All Slavic nations...No no our primitive peasants can't understand that...I will put all other Serbs instead. Yeah, that will work. Awesome!!!

    And it did...for the others that is.

    I can only imagine the face of the Hapsburg chief of intelligence,as he was reading the hot papers. Oh mein Gott, vas ist das?... I bet that he needed some serious schnapps to pull his horses together. The German logic kicked in, how could we overlooked this? They are much more advanced than we thought. We need to be fast and precise otherwise they will take our lands. We need to secure our lands so we will annex the Bosnia right away, since that is the place where they will strike first.

    The rest is well known history.
    Last edited by Versus; 26 Aug 11, at 13:54.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    Well, due to the way how medieval Serbian society functioned most of them stayed in Kosovo, after the battle ended. The Serbian society wasn't actually a class society, it was more a strict cast society. The lowest cast consisted out of two groups, Sebres, the peasants whom were allowed to work on the land without the right to own it and Meropas class of peasants whom took care of the cattle. There is another view at this that states that all peasants were called Meropas and that their cast was called Sebres. While nobility was tasked for leading the state and march to war, these two classes were excluded form participating in wars. But in the times of war, their task was to go trough the battlefield once the battle was over and recover the equipment and the wounded. Since they were illiterate, the things they saw were placed into the poems, so this cast of people, actually became the one that recorded the events and thanks to them we were able to preserve the history. But since they were totally dependent of their masters, loosing the masters was like loosing their purpose for life, so there is a great deal of emotions involved in their descriptions. That is why those epic songs are so emotional, full of grief and sorrow.

    Most of the Serbian population from Kosovo went to exile, during the Great War of 1683-1699 when the Holly alliance of European Christians lead the counter attack on the advancing Ottomans. Those whom stayed, were either slaughtered, converted to Islam or became future exiles. What is known for sure is that from the 17th century, the Serbs in Kosovo are minority.
    There are records from that time that show the presence of Albanians but in what percentage and what were the relationships between them and the rest of the population is a bit unclear. From what I saw, during my deployment there, by analyzing the Albanian villages was that there is a very specific architectural blueprint of the villages it self. The typical Albanian village wasn't the village in the classical sense, it is more an union of two or more families and it is built like a small fort, with huge walls and the narrow street that runs trough it. The Albanian walls are well known type of architectural design, since combined with the narrow street they form a perfect bottle neck and a killing ground for the enemy. That is one of the reasons, why they were devastated so often. You simply can't take them out by any other mean. The way how they call themselves is also an indication toward mountain life style, since in Albanian they call themselves Shqiptar which means the ones whom speak clearly. Voice in a mythology is a sound and the sound is carried by the air and the air is a predominant element on the mountains. Also the analysis of the massacres they performed on the captured Serbs indicate a strong attachment to the cults of the mountain.

    So most likely the Albanians lived in the mountains while the Serbs populated the valleys and plains below. Than, when the Ottomans emerged, they removed the Serbs from the lands and Albanians descended from the mountains where they accepted the Islam and became the dominant ethnic group.
    But the role of religion in Albanian ethnic group is secondary, the primary principle is bloodline and ethnicity.

    I will get to that in a moment.
    So let me get this right... effectively Serbs in Kosovo were 'ethnicly cleansed' to use a modern term...

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    AFAIK, Albanians bought properties from the domicile Serb population who then settled in Serbia - usually Belgrade.

    This happened in this order

    Serbian village, the villagers need someone to take care of the cows, sheep or to work the land...

    Albanian guy from the next village comes in works for the villagers or for the ZIK (Zemjodelsko Industriski Kombinat - Agri-Industrial Combine). Later this guy with his immediate family (usually ~20 people) buys a land/property from a local Serb who needs money for whatever reason (wedding, scholarship, funeral, or just moving to a new job in the city) usually paying way much then the market price.

    Next thing you know the other Serbs who also need money sell property to this guy's family or friends. Then the prices of the properties go down as the newcomers start practicing their way of life and there is more property for sale then buyers.

    Afterwards, the Albanians build a mosque and to live in that village is impossible.

    Same happened in Macedonia. IDK if it is possible to find data online, but in the late 70s village of Arachinovo had 1 Albanian inhabitant. Today it has 0 Macedonians.

    Another trivia, we have same number of mosques ad churches, but we have 33% Muslims compared to 60% Christians here
    Doktor this doesn't explain WHY they left - just how.

  7. #22
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Snapper,Doc said how it happened,but he also hinted why.Life became impossible.The 70 and 80's brought a lot of hostile attitudes and actions by the Albanians against the Serbs,including assaults&murders,destruction of property etc....The chaps were in a hurry to remove Serbs from those villages and neighborhoods where their numbers were large enough. The Commie authorities were helpless and ignored any pleas by local Serbs.The socialist brotherhood& the ideal of a united Yugoslavia were ideas to big to fail,thus they remained passive.Since appeasement never thwarted aggression,the mutual hostility only grew.

    I'm sure Versus will get there with his excellent posts.I'll let him finish,before commenting.

    What happened during the Ottoman times was indeed ethnic cleansing,but NATO was yet to be born and Austria at the time reached its limits.
    Last edited by Mihais; 26 Aug 11, at 13:29.
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    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  8. #23
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    So let me get this right... effectively Serbs in Kosovo were 'ethnicly cleansed' to use a modern term...




    Doktor this doesn't explain WHY they left - just how.

    Yes, more than once. But I will get to that part, very soon.

  9. #24
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Road to war

    Serbia was never rich enough to undertake serious and coherent national reconstruction. It always was poised toward war effort. Since the military is the institution that spends, it is the user of the state budget, it takes a very strong economy to support modern and well trained army. Especially if you want to achieve these goals, tripling the size of the country. For this effort you need at least six times more resources for a successful campaigns. So taxation was massive. Early modern Serbian state introduced the heavy tax burden, placing the general population in poverty. If they though that the freedom from Turks will bring them easier life, Serbs soon realized that they are in the same situation if not even worse, since this time they were oppressed by their own kin. This lead to social unrest and various rebellions against the govt. Govt replied with adding another institution to the system and that is the law enforcement. So the triangle, military, government and the police, both public and secret became the main pillars of the modern Serbian state, along with the Church. This lead to the complete disappointment in the notion of the state. Serbs became prone to anarchy, so cases of organized gangs appeared and various types of frauds and corruption accrued. To sack a state for a tax, became an obsession, so pretty much a couple of decades,after it was formed recognized on the Berlin summit in 1878, Serbia was de facto a dysfunctional state. It failed to provide better life to its inhabitants yet it was poised for more war and conquest. As the inner tensions grew, the govt found the need to tighten the control by increasing its bureaucracy, police and military, which than lead to more taxes, less efficient government that costs even more. This hard life reminded the Serbs of the ottoman rule and they became extremely anti government. In order to avoid the internal collapse, the Serbian government increased the war efforts in order to ease the tensions from within. This lead to unnecessary wars and adventures, such as the attempt to gain access to sea and attempt to control the Albania and its coast line. In both cases, Serbian military was forced to pull back, at the gun point form naval cannons of Austrian Hungarian and Italy battle ships.

    On the global front, the pan-slavic idea was gaining foothold in the Balkans. The nationalism was on the rise in all parts, and the only free states were Serbia and Montenegro at the time. The Austrian-Hungarian Empire, Germany, France and Great Britain were very worried with this, since they saw the Russian influence spreading to fast. Serbia was Slavic, Orthodox and free and Europe of that time saw it as the Russian outpost and took hostile stance towards it. From that point, we will become like a little Russians to Europe and the Europe would treat us as such till this day. But primary Russian interest in the Balkans wasn't the Serbia.

    It was Bulgaria.

    Bulgaria was more appealing to Russia since it has a large coast line and it had borders with Ottoman empire, the primary Russian enemy of that time so from the strategic point of view it was much more important than land locked Serbia. This Russian stance, was a shock to Serbia, whom at that point moved away from Russia and embraced pro European policy, after the San Stefano treaty which ended the second war between Serbs and Ottomans, in 1878.

    The first Balkan War 1912-1913.

    The first Balkan war was the first joint confrontation of Greece, Montenegro,Bulgaria and Serbia against Ottoman Empire and had the goal to free all of these countries from Ottoman domination.
    It was the successful campaign and manage the achieve all the goals with huge human casualties.
    In the first Balkan War, Serbs were able to push the Ottomans from Kosovo and came for the first time in conflict with Albanians.

    Albanians themselves rebelled against Ottomans in 1910 and demanded the unification of all lands that were previously divided into separate provinces into one Albanian province although Albanians were not majority in all of them. This uprising showed that the Ottoman Empire was weak and served as a primary trigger for First Balkan War.

    The second Balkan War 1913

    The second Balkan war was fought between former allies, Bulgaria on one side and Serbia,Greece and Montenegro on the other. At the end of the war, Rumania attacked the Bulgaria and hasted the Bulgarian defeat. The cause for the war was Bulgarian dissatisfaction with the territories it got from the Ottomans and wanted to take them from Serbs by force. It was a brief clash but after it ended, the Austrian-Hungarian Empire became very very edgy, since it saw Serbian expansion go swiftly and rapidly right in its doorstep. Also, as I said before, it considered Serbia to be an Russian satellite and that made it to be even more edgy.

    The second Balkan war increased the tensions between Serbia and Austrian-Hungarian Empire which escalated when Gavrilo Princip assassinated the Archduke of Austria, in Sarajevo on June 28. 1914. Austrian-Hungarian Empire demanded the investigation and gave the Serbia an ultimatum. Serbs initially accepted the terms but on Russian assurance rejected them.

    After that the Austrian-Hungarian Empire declared the war on Serbia, marking the begging of First World War.

  10. #25
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    And...????? Next, next!!!!!

  11. #26
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    World War One

    The First World War was the first major defeat of Serbian Army. After four successful campaigns that gave extraordinary morale boost and combat experience, the overwhelming force of Austrian-Hungarian Empire and Germany forced the Serbian Army on retreat. Although it had initial successes in repealing the first attack when the Austrian-Hungarian Empire attacked alone and actually defeating them, once the Germany joined,the Serbian Army could not withstand the pressure. It undertook the retreat to the south, to the Greece, but when Bulgarians without declaration of war,invaded the Serbia with two armies. The road to the south was cut off so the only way was across Albania and Montenegro mountain passes. The retreat started on December 3rd and after one month, the remains of Serbian Army were at the Albanian port of Drac, where they were supposed to be picked up by the French, British and Italian navy. But the ships were not there. Moreover,Italy, started to show hostile intentions toward Serbs since the Albania was under Italian sphere of influence. After the intervention of Russian Tzar Nikolai, on behalf of Serbian prime minster Nikola Pasic, Allies sent the fleet to pick up the Serbian soldiers. That was the critical moment since Tzar Nikolai sent an ultimatum to France and Great Britain that in case they don't send ships to aid Serbian Army, Russia will pull out of the war.

    After waiting for one month, the first French ships arrived and started to carry the troops to the island of Corfu, where field hospital was laid. But the facilities were not accommodated to accept such a large number of casualties, there were not enough food, medical supplies or clothes. Serbian soldiers slept under the open sky and soon another problem accrued. The graveyards were full. So the dead were laid into the sea, around island of Vido. The place is called “the Blue tomb” where 5400 dead were laid to rest.

    This retreat left Serbs with 243.877 casualties, killed, captured or died form diseases. During the retreat they were attacked constantly from Albanians, whom didn't recognize the government in Albanian capital Tirana, which allowed the retreat. They were armed with 5000 rifles and 10.000 rounds, in secret by Austrian-Hungarian Empire trough intelligence channels and tasked to follow and kill Serbian soldiers as they retreat across Albania.

    After the recuperation, Serbian Army was rearmed and transported to Thessaloníki, where they joined the British and French troops as they were poised to open the southern front. The battles were very hard, especially fierce fighting developed at the mountain of Kajmakcalan, which was the highest mountain peak (2.521 meters above sea level) in Macedonian border with Greece, fought between 12 and 30 September 1916. After that mountain was taken, it was somewhat easier to push forward although the resistance grew but the terrain was much more in favor for the assault. To keep the long story short, French and Serbian troops liberated the Serbia from Austrian-Hungarian and German occupation and the war ended on November 11. 1918.

    Serbia after the World War I was a ruin. More than one third of population was lost, 70% of agricultural production was destroyed along with 58% of industrial capacity. The number of skilled workers reached the 1910 level in 1923.

    The end of World War I will unite the southern Slavs into a single state, the Kingdom of Serbs Croats and Slovenians, which will later became the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.

    In this period, between two wars, the first significant clashes will accrue in Kosovo and first Albanian para military formations will be formed together with supporting political organizations which will formulate the plan for national unification and their main goal-the creation of ethnically cleansed united Albanian lands known as Shqipëria e Madhe or Ethnic or Great Albania.

  12. #27
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    The land of eagles.

    As the Serbs fled to exile, Albanians from mountain regions descended and populated the land. There they were treated in the same way as Serbs, they were stripped of all rights and forced to accept Islam.
    The ones whom didn't want to accept Islam were subjected to oppression and was forced to return to the mountain regions. There, they formed the specific architectural model for habitats. All villages were built in a way to be fortified positions. The village usually consisted out of single long and narrow street, completely isolated from houses by a great walls. That gave them the advantage for defense, since the main street was a perfect killing ground for the advancing enemy. With this set up, any Ottoman raid was easily foiled and soon, the Ottomans stopped venturing into the mountain regions. The Albanians in the valleys, organized the similar way of life, but they were more accessible for Ottomans since they didn't had the mountain to protect them. All Albanians in Kosovo have the same dialect as the Albanians that live in the northern Albania,the Gheg dialect, which points out that they both have the same origin.

    Mountains provided good cover and offered excellent conditions for guerrilla fighting and ambushes. In other words, without artillery support any army that ventured to the mountain region, was in a serious trouble. Canyons, caves, thick forest are simply made for fighting.

    I mean, look at Afghanistan and everything will be clear.

    This way of life combined with tribal and traditional codex, that had strong inner rules, rules that must be obeyed unconditionally, created superior ethnic cohesion among Albanian population. For them, religion or class is irrelevant, the ethnic principle is above all and that is the place where all Albanians act as one, towards common good and goals. That system is crystal clear, it doesn't matter if the Albanian is rich or poor, if he or she is American, German, Muslim,Catholic or Orthodox, the only thing that matters is that he or she is Albanian. That simplicity of life and concept of living, is the greatest Albanian asset. It enables them to be absolutely flexible in choosing the lifestyle, they can be feudal lords, capitalists, socialists, communists, royalists anything they want or can be, but they are always Albanians. They are 100% a coherent nation. They always know whom they are, they have the identity. So the idea of ethnically unified state, state that is 100% Albanian isn't a horrible idea or idea that promotes intolerance or a lack of democracy. That state grants peace,prosperity and equality, care and safety. That state, that nation will give you everything but only if you are Albanian.

    Plain and simple, just as the name says, the ones whom speak clearly.

    Albanians boosted up their population, having large families with 7-10 children. Ethnic expansion and national survival is guaranteed with this set up. That enabled them to endure trough harsh times of Ottoman rule and later on Serbian rule and they were able to defeat both of them. They suffered horribly from both but they endured, thanks to the one thing that Ottomans and especially Serbs lacked the most, clear notion of identity. Serbs knew this, that was the thing they were afraid the most and that was the thing that made them so hostile toward Albanians,Albanians had something that Serbs lost and that thing wasn't the Kosovo as a land, it was the national identity and in their nationalistic euphoria they tried to root out that identity. But they couldn't do it, no matter how violent,inhumane they were towards Albanians. On the other side, Albanians never had that problem, they were constantly pushing the Serbs bit by bit, until the ethnically clean state was formed. Taking out the Serbs for them, wasn't the ethnic cleansing or murder or crime. It is like taking out the garbage, normal thing and the thing that need and should be done.

    And it was at the end.
    Last edited by Versus; 26 Aug 11, at 22:43.

  13. #28
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    I wonder what are your predictions for Macedonia (FYRM), another presumed Balkan Slavic State? Would you advocate the admittance of Albania to the EU as a possible resolution? Perhaps (should the EU dissolve) you would advocate a form of pan-Slavonic union? In short I can imagine that all 'wabbits' do not want their gardens invaded by neighbours, be they Austro-Hungarian/Germans of WW1 or Soviets of WW2 - or indeed Turks and Albanians!

    The choices made in the Bosnian conflict were primarily made for 'humanitarian' reasons. The brief Kosovo conflict was almost certainly undertaken to stop Turkish intervention and a wider conflagration, so again primarily for saving lives, regardless of creed or culture. Right or wrong on cultures etc the basis of NATO efforts and UN efforts during both these conflicts was to stop the war and save life.

    It is a shame though, in my opinion, if we have created a 'Greater Albania' and introduced sharia law once again to our Christian lands and Monesteries in the Balkans at the expense of an emasculuted Serbia.

  14. #29
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I wonder what are your predictions for Macedonia (FYRM), another presumed Balkan Slavic State? Would you advocate the admittance of Albania to the EU as a possible resolution? Perhaps (should the EU dissolve) you would advocate a form of pan-Slavonic union? In short I can imagine that all 'wabbits' do not want their gardens invaded by neighbours, be they Austro-Hungarian/Germans of WW1 or Soviets of WW2 - or indeed Turks and Albanians!
    I will tell you my 2 cents, that is we wont ever enter EU. For two reasons.
    Until we meet EU criteria, eurosceptics here will be majority.
    The name issue. There is no Government in Skopje (and Athens) to solve this issue in a favorable way for their voters

    Pan-Slavic union? The only way to put Serbs, Croats and Bulgarians under same hat is EU.

    The choices made in the Bosnian conflict were primarily made for 'humanitarian' reasons. The brief Kosovo conflict was almost certainly undertaken to stop Turkish intervention and a wider conflagration, so again primarily for saving lives, regardless of creed or culture. Right or wrong on cultures etc the basis of NATO efforts and UN efforts during both these conflicts was to stop the war and save life.
    How would Turkish army without NATO engage in a direct conflict with Serbia?

    It is a shame though, in my opinion, if we have created a 'Greater Albania' and introduced sharia law once again to our Christian lands and Monesteries in the Balkans at the expense of an emasculuted Serbia.
    Snapper have you been in Albania? What Sharia law are we talking about? Or you speak about Kosovo? They are more Italians then Iranians
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  15. #30
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I wonder what are your predictions for Macedonia (FYRM), another presumed Balkan Slavic State? Would you advocate the admittance of Albania to the EU as a possible resolution? Perhaps (should the EU dissolve) you would advocate a form of pan-Slavonic union? In short I can imagine that all 'wabbits' do not want their gardens invaded by neighbours, be they Austro-Hungarian/Germans of WW1 or Soviets of WW2 - or indeed Turks and Albanians!

    The choices made in the Bosnian conflict were primarily made for 'humanitarian' reasons. The brief Kosovo conflict was almost certainly undertaken to stop Turkish intervention and a wider conflagration, so again primarily for saving lives, regardless of creed or culture. Right or wrong on cultures etc the basis of NATO efforts and UN efforts during both these conflicts was to stop the war and save life.

    It is a shame though, in my opinion, if we have created a 'Greater Albania' and introduced sharia law once again to our Christian lands and Monesteries in the Balkans at the expense of an emasculuted Serbia.
    Macedonia is currently claim. But they had their share of conflict and it is bound to happen again (sorry for being honest Doktor). The thing that stopped this line of confrontations was 9/11 and nothing else.

    Things are much more complicated that that, Snapper. Albanian desire for unification is pure ethnically driven and it has nothing to do with religion. They will not allow anything to meddle with that, even the extreme Muslims.
    I know that this might sound odd, but they are the new "Gate Keepers" since the days of Serbian role in that matter are over. As far as EU story goes, as a peak oil believer, I don't think that EU has much of a chance. Just as Yugoslavia was a dream, the EU is a dream and the only thing that made it what it is, is the money. Which is in crisis now since it is bind to energy issues, aka natural gas and oil. As the situation with energy deteriorates you will see religious, national, social tensions emerge more and more and in its purer form as the thing progresses. This is due to fact, that the reason for EU formation is to provide good life, since it has been recognized that all crisis and wars emerge from people being miserable and hopeless. Poverty is seen as the breeding grounds for this to hatch. Poverty or wealth in other words economy or money. As people lose confidence in money, they will lose the confidence in states that are based on money and thus the union that is based on money.

    Heh as far as Great Albania story goes, they are not done yet, they have 2/3 more to go in order to complete their goal.

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