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Thread: India and Identity Cards

  1. #31
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indus creed View Post
    Biometrics are still electronically stored in bits and bytes. They are just complicated passwords and the password database will be in govts(read, corrupt bureaucrat's) hand. Even if it were secure with strong cryptography, imagine the concentration of power in the hands of indian bureaucrat and those who are remote controlling him.
    Right, and this corrupt bureaucrat can be bought for not too much. Getting blank cards won't be too hard.

    It's just creeping statism or more govt in our lives. If not with the first govt under this system then certainly by the next ten. This project is just big money making exercise for the players involved, at our expense initially financially and ultimately politically.

  2. #32
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    I was busy these days reading about countries without UID (abbrev for the sake of this thread)

    Let me ask you some questions:

    What information are stored on your current personal ID card? I mean beside the obvious - picture, DoB and address?

    How does your doctor determines it is really you?

    How does your tax bureau determines it is you?

    How does the bank determine if to give you a credit or not?

    How you prove you are the owner of some property?

    What happens with minors? How the state determines they are your kids?

    How do you get copy of your student files?

    I have a lot more hows, but these are enough for a start.

    To be clear, I am not advocating you should have this system, just curious how these things are solved without one?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  3. #33
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Let me ask you some questions:

    What information are stored on your current personal ID card? I mean beside the obvious - picture, DoB and address?
    We do not have one currently. You can use any card with a photo on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    How does your doctor determines it is really you?
    Does not care, so long as somebody is going to pay for the treatment. Remember we do not have any nationalised health care in India. So its either with cash or insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    How does your tax bureau determines it is you?
    We have a PAN card which has your photo & a number, this is used for tracking for tax purposes, pretty much like the US SSN#.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    How does the bank determine if to give you a credit or not?
    Give them your current employer, pay slips, your current assets ie bank balances, property, gold etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    How you prove you are the owner of some property?
    Property deed passed on to you from the previous owner. Land registry office takes your thumbprint as well as previous owner along with your photograph on back of the deed. Land registry office then records you are the owner of the property.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    What happens with minors? How the state determines they are your kids?
    Birth certificates. No child benefits so otherwise state does not bother.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    How do you get copy of your student files?
    Apply to college you went to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    To be clear, I am not advocating you should have this system, just curious how these things are solved without one?
    Many ways, there are existing systems in place. Usually they require two or three types of identifying documents.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 22 Jul 11, at 02:04.

  4. #34
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    Don't forget the obvious reason for the Govt. to go to all the expense of operating a new identity card. So they can gather information on spending habits? This info is very valuable to sell to marketing companies. Do you really trust the Govt. to protect your privacy? And once your personal/private info is released, even if by accident, it can never be recalled. Just a thought.
    Don't listen to me, I'm a wack job.

  5. #35
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laser View Post
    Don't forget the obvious reason for the Govt. to go to all the expense of operating a new identity card. So they can gather information on spending habits? This info is very valuable to sell to marketing companies.
    No, that isn't why govt wants it. That is why business wants it, so they can have a nice way to streamline potential customers based on income profile. Business especially the tech firms that will participate in this project are laughing all the way to the bank, this project wil run into the $billions with regular pay for a long time.

    Govt wants it so it has better control over ppl. Atm they use benign reasons like it helps to cut down loss when delivering benefits. But what about the govt 10 adminstrations from now or more. There is no guarantee at all once a system like this is in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser View Post
    Do you really trust the Govt. to protect your privacy? And once your personal/private info is released, even if by accident, it can never be recalled. Just a thought.
    No, and you are right. Only you can protect your privacy. After which you're dependent on prevailing laws & govt willingness to enforce them.

  6. #36
    Contributor Wayfarer's Avatar
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    India doesn't have any strong Libertarian/pro-free-market/anti-statist movement do they?

  7. #37
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    Am I correct in understanding that the Govt. wants to institute a tax, or otherwise collect 11 billion from the population, in order to fund the new UID? And then, thru the backdoor, they will probably sell the info to Business, for some amount? Sounds like a really good program for everyone, EXCEPT the population.
    Don't listen to me, I'm a wack job.

  8. #38
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfarer View Post
    India doesn't have any strong Libertarian/pro-free-market/anti-statist movement do they?
    There are certainly pro-market followers, the reforms made many believers but anti-statist is less clear. They conflate more govt with functional, working & responsible govt because in the past they felt the govt did nothing. The govt had less funds in the past because taxes were high and evasion also as high. So govt was useless in those days despite having overwhelming control over the economy in the license raj days.

    Ppl here are distrustful of politicians but are not necessarily against more govt in their lives. The more the benefits line is touted the more they see such a system as benign and indeed beneficial. The claims of increased efficiency are just assertions that do not stand up to scrutiny. Its pretty much a shallow one sided narrative with hardly any mention of the negatives or their extent and future consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser View Post
    Am I correct in understanding that the Govt. wants to institute a tax, or otherwise collect 11 billion from the population, in order to fund the new UID? And then, thru the backdoor, they will probably sell the info to Business, for some amount? Sounds like a really good program for everyone, EXCEPT the population.
    No, they are not saying they want to introduce a tax, but its inevitable that such a system will require increasing tax eventually. The argument they use is -- a govt that cannot see its citizens cannot serve them or if you are invisible to the system then you are on your own.

    For the record the chairman of this project expects it to cost ~$3 billion. But the LSE report using the British govt estimates at the time showed them to be grossly understated. It isn't unreasonable to assume the same would not be the case in India either.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 24 Jul 11, at 16:18.

  9. #39
    An t-aimiréal chléthúil Senior Contributor crooks's Avatar
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    National ID cards are indeed a terrible idea. Obviously for services there has to be some way to give citizens an individual imprint (Social Security No. in the US, PPS here) but a card that just lists the citizen proactively is useful only for tracking and will not end well (nor is it designed to - it's usually governments getting authoritarian and wanting to collect excess data about people lives and enhance efficiency at violating civil liberties, nothing more). Citizenship is the only ID one needs.
    Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
    - John Stuart Mill.

  10. #40
    Regular ace009's Avatar
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    I probably belong to both sides of this debate. On the one hand I would hate to see anyone, be that a government official or a private company with too much information about me - or too much power over me. On the other hand, I would rather have a more streamlined system in India than the current chaos and lack of process.
    For the government having too much info debate, I feel the government already has too much info about me at any time - this UID is the last few nails in the coffin. On that note, I trust the government slightly more than a private company. Simply because, I can vote the government out, but since I am not a majority shareholder in any of the big companies (who hold my personal info), I can do jack to them.
    On the chaos in Indian sytems- currently there are a number of "identity" documents in India - the Photo-Id are, Passport (less than 1% people have them), Drivers license (a little over 2% people have that), Voters Id (about 67% people have those, but the pict quality is horrible), PAN (about 15% people, same problem with pict quality) and military/ Govt employee ID (goes without saying, only military or civ govt employees have them).
    The non-Photo ID (for what THEY are worth) - PDS/ Ration Card (nowadays probably called BPL card), citizenship certification given by local govt representative (not worth the paper they are printed on, since you can get as many as you want simply by bribing the govt official).
    So, There are about 8 of these ID documents, supposed to be all "proof" of your identity, yet when someone has to go open a bank account or do any official work, they need to produce a specific one, or a combination of them at times multiple ones for verification. As a result, corruption is rampant, poor people are exploited and common man dreads the experience of going through ANY official process - and I should know - I have taken my share of shit and then some.

    So, what do I think of the UID? I think it is a good idea if the government can put in strict rules and regulations and ensure appropriate safeguards to the data. And by appropriate safeguards I mean the state of the art encryption and data management processes, which are evaluated and updated annualy. The cost however high, should be more than enough offset by the benefits.
    No data is absolutely safe. But someone who can go into the trouble of hacking into a government database overriding multiple safeguards - probably have enough resources anyway to gather the info about me.
    As for all the talk about BIG BROTHER watching - in India, if they want to watch you, there is precious little you can do about it. And for me, I would rather have the order and system than to see my countrymen wallow in the chaos and systemic ill-treatment they face.
    Ace o Spades in Ninth Hell

  11. #41
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ace009 View Post
    On the other hand, I would rather have a more streamlined system in India than the current chaos and lack of process.
    Everybody wants this, the problem is reaching a consensus and a govt that has the balls to take the plunge. Start with all sorts of soviet era approvals that do nothing but bloat a functionaries ego beyond where it should be. The checks on how much you make and what you make, what you import, what you export etc. It would take reforms v2.0 to comprehensively address these issues across the economy.

    Course govt says we have high growth rates right now, any changes might jeopardise that. It would take some serious nerve to push it forward. The changes of law required etc. Its a monumental task.

    We had to go bankrupt to introduce reforms v1.0, what will it take to introduce v2.0. Reforms that will actually reach the lower classes and not stop at the middle classes & higher ups.

    Quote Originally Posted by ace009 View Post
    For the government having too much info debate, I feel the government already has too much info about me at any time - this UID is the last few nails in the coffin. On that note, I trust the government slightly more than a private company. Simply because, I can vote the government out, but since I am not a majority shareholder in any of the big companies (who hold my personal info), I can do jack to them.
    But the various depts don't talk to each other not unless there's a good reason to. What UID will do is make it easier to integrate a profile from various sources. I don't see what benefit the average citizen gets out of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ace009 View Post
    On the chaos in Indian sytems- currently there are a number of "identity" documents in India - the Photo-Id are, Passport (less than 1% people have them), Drivers license (a little over 2% people have that), Voters Id (about 67% people have those, but the pict quality is horrible), PAN (about 15% people, same problem with pict quality) and military/ Govt employee ID (goes without saying, only military or civ govt employees have them).
    The non-Photo ID (for what THEY are worth) - PDS/ Ration Card (nowadays probably called BPL card), citizenship certification given by local govt representative (not worth the paper they are printed on, since you can get as many as you want simply by bribing the govt official).
    So, There are about 8 of these ID documents, supposed to be all "proof" of your identity, yet when someone has to go open a bank account or do any official work, they need to produce a specific one, or a combination of them at times multiple ones for verification. As a result, corruption is rampant, poor people are exploited and common man dreads the experience of going through ANY official process - and I should know - I have taken my share of shit and then some.
    Corruption is rampant because of the archaic laws that stipulate what is required before a procedure is completed. How often do you need to show various forms of ID, opening an acount, how often you do that.

    This line gets touted a lot but it aint going to make that govt functionary more efficient if you only need to provide one form of ID rather than more. I've dealt with numerous govt ppl, i've found patience and courtesy got me places. Yes, things move slowly but thats the case with govts everywhere. A lack of ID isn't the bottleneck its made out it be, its the excessive, unnecessarily convoluted systems, still in place from a much more restrictive bygone era. An era that championed as its main ethos that the more ppl employed by govt the better. The more ppl that looked at a procedure or required to sign off, the better. Small wonder things take so long here. You want change, you want things to move faster, then start streamlining govt, not the citizens.

    How many political parties out there talk about streamlining govt ? not a single one !

    It really surprises me how many ppl do not GET this simple fact

    Quote Originally Posted by ace009 View Post
    So, what do I think of the UID? I think it is a good idea if the government can put in strict rules and regulations and ensure appropriate safeguards to the data. And by appropriate safeguards I mean the state of the art encryption and data management processes, which are evaluated and updated annualy. The cost however high, should be more than enough offset by the benefits.

    No data is absolutely safe. But someone who can go into the trouble of hacking into a government database overriding multiple safeguards - probably have enough resources anyway to gather the info about me.
    Won't make a difference.

    No need to break in at all when you can get an insider to do it, for not too much

    Quote Originally Posted by ace009 View Post
    As for all the talk about BIG BROTHER watching - in India, if they want to watch you, there is precious little you can do about it. And for me, I would rather have the order and system than to see my countrymen wallow in the chaos and systemic ill-treatment they face.
    Why should they be watching me unless i'm a criminal. No, i think they have no right to watch over me whatsoever otherwise.

    The ill-treatment & chaos you mention isn't going to go away if this system is introduced, quite the contrary in fact. It will be much easier to target ppl by anyone with access to a database that has the info.

    And we want to actually 'automate' it ?
    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Jul 11, at 20:27.

  12. #42
    Regular ace009's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Why should they be watching me unless i'm a criminal. No, i think they have no right to watch over me whatsoever otherwise.

    The ill-treatment & chaos you mention isn't going to go away if this system is introduced, quite the contrary in fact. It will be much easier to target ppl by anyone with access to a database that has the info.

    And we want to actually 'automate' it ?
    Hey! I want the govt to watch me - you know in my bedroom, in my bathroom, in my kitchen - what I eat, what I shit, what I do in bed ... how wlse will I know my tax-dollar is being used for GOOD? It might give me some motivation to be more creative and may create some jobs! :D

    :D





    Just joking ....
    Ace o Spades in Ninth Hell

  13. #43
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Fcuking nightmare waiting to happen



    Put 1.2 billin peoples biometrics online. If they get compromised. There is no legal remedy. We got a supreme court judgement on privacy but have yet to get to the bottom of it

    But the govt is hell bent on digital India. Worst part its not just this govt, any govt that comes to office wants to track people. The tools for setting up a surveillance state are falling into place. The govt doesn't have to do it. Every entity that requires this ID can . The govt can say but its not us and they're off the hook

    So when i read what these kids did to fool the system i salute them
    http://www.hindustantimes.com/mumbai...Dml2DakeI.html

    It used to be about disbursing welfare. Pay taxes, not on welfare then no need for this shit, right ? wrong the fcukers made it mandatory for everyone.

    Even the Chinese don't have something this frickin' invasive
    Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Nov 17, at 21:53.

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