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Thread: India and Identity Cards

  1. #16
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Another article on UID

    An Unique Identity Bill | Jul 24 2010| Economic & Political Weekly

    First heard of this author, Dr. Ramanathan when she appeared on a news show called 'Face the Nation'. Absolutely blew the opposition out of the water

    Does a UID sceme violate democratic rights ? | Face the Nation | Sept 30 2010

  2. #17
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Another article on UID

    An Unique Identity Bill | Jul 24 2010| Economic & Political Weekly

    First heard of this author, Dr. Ramanathan when she appeared on a news show called 'Face the Nation'. Absolutely blew the opposition out of the water

    Does a UID sceme violate democratic rights ? | Face the Nation | Sept 30 2010
    Maybe she did, but I absolutely do not share her POV. In fact, I think that the Indian government should do away with various things like PAN, MIN and other sorts of cr*p and settle on the UID for both provision of services and validation of Identity. As the guiding philosophy says, this is not an identity card project, merely one to document the identity of citizens so that the state may ensure that services meant for a certain group or individual reaches them and not others. Don't want services, don't get a UID. No one is forced to a an SSN in the US either, but its availability ensure proper management of services.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  3. #18
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    So as I already asked Tronic, why not use the already existing PAN#

    What is the penalty for having more than one SSN# in the US ?

    You're looking at the supposed benefits but ignoring the potential dangers of which we don't have any safeguards for currently. What's disturbing is the govt seems not to think thats very important given there's yet to be a public discussion on this card. Which for all intents & purposes will be obligatory.

    What benefits are there for the common man with this scheme ? I can't see much over the status quo. Ramanathan makes that quite clear.

    What benefits are there for govt & business with this scheme ? loads, which do not exist currently, and thats WHO its for

    So why are we paying for this out of our taxes in that case ? Why are we not even being consulted.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony
    In fact, I think that the Indian government should do away with various things like PAN, MIN and other sorts of cr*p and settle on the UID for both provision of services and validation of Identity.
    Why ?

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony
    As the guiding philosophy says, this is not an identity card project, merely one to document the identity of citizens so that the state may ensure that services meant for a certain group or individual reaches them and not others.
    Heh, you might want to rephrase that

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony
    Don't want services, don't get a UID. No one is forced to a an SSN in the US either, but its availability ensure proper management of services.
    Not having a SSN# isn't as detrimental to life in the US as not having a UID# will be in India.

    Do they take your fingerprints before you get a SSN# ? from personal experience i can tell you they don't.

    Not having a PAN# isn't detrimental to life in India.



    Loads more here
    Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Jul 11, at 22:43.

  4. #19
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    IDK about other systems, but is this system supposed to gather and produce information different then your passport?

    If the government wants to stock me, they will. I am over it and couldn't care less

    They don't need cameras, businesses install them for own security. They don't need my ID card for my bank accounts IRS has them already. My health card? Same... If they are up to they will learn my sexual affiliations, favorite positions, number of partners.... Until it is only the government who has access to my data I don't give a damn. If they don't have anything smarter then to stock me, fine.

    However, I see why the outcry. Especially with latest NoW scandal and journalists taping phones to virtually everyone. Few years ago the documents from one of the MIs took the road. A year or so ago NHS data were posted to a wrong address IIRC. The confidence is shaken. Personally I was under impression this sort of data in UK would be more secure, bet Brits shared that POV.

    But what is the opposite? We had a law here prohibiting anyone to tape our phone calls. We all know people were taped, only that was done in unlawful processes. The power is a drug and a strong one.

    Every government in the world is trying to "learn" about it's citizens.

    Back to the topic. IMV, If this one card is helping Indian citizens not to carry a bag full of cards, then it's a good thing and should be implemented.

    However, the data collected and stored there should be the absolute minimum needed for the government to provide the right services to the citizens. And the same citizens should be able to have access to the data stored on the card.
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  5. #20
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    IDK about other systems, but is this system supposed to gather and produce information different then your passport?
    It has some common data to a passport but isn't to be used that way. Passport isn't really a good example to use here because not everybody has one. You only want one to travel abroad. Also nobody uses your passport# as a common key to identify you in other databases only the passport dept

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    If the government wants to stock me, they will. I am over it and couldn't care less

    They don't need cameras, businesses install them for own security. They don't need my ID card for my bank accounts IRS has them already. My health card? Same... If they are up to they will learn my sexual affiliations, favorite positions, number of partners.... Until it is only the government who has access to my data I don't give a damn. If they don't have anything smarter then to stock me, fine.
    Ah but all that data is in different silos and with ppl that don't normally talk to each other. If they want to pull up your picture they have to do some work and the only way is if there is a good reason. Whereas here there is a unique number for every citizen from birth to death. That means it becomes easier to link this data up. It increases control govt has over citizens. More control is not good thats what police states want so they can abuse privacy & freedom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    However, I see why the outcry. Especially with latest NoW scandal and journalists taping phones to virtually everyone. Few years ago the documents from one of the MIs took the road. A year or so ago NHS data were posted to a wrong address IIRC. The confidence is shaken. Personally I was under impression this sort of data in UK would be more secure, bet Brits shared that POV.
    And this happens in a country that has relatively strong data protection laws. We have nothing approaching that yet. Our record of enforcement of laws isn't that great either. Lots of potential for abuse exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    But what is the opposite? We had a law here prohibiting anyone to tape our phone calls. We all know people were taped, only that was done in unlawful processes. The power is a drug and a strong one.

    Every government in the world is trying to "learn" about it's citizens.
    Exactly, citizens should be asking for transparency from their govt not the other around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Back to the topic. IMV, If this one card is helping Indian citizens not to carry a bag full of cards, then it's a good thing and should be implemented.

    However, the data collected and stored there should be the absolute minimum needed for the government to provide the right services to the citizens. And the same citizens should be able to have access to the data stored on the card.
    Most ppl think it would be more conveninent because now there is only one card to carry but they forget what happens to the data. They see the front end ie the card but forget about the back end ie the data base. Its out of view. If you want to use one card for everything then you are implicilty agreeing to the govt using that number for everything isn't it. You are signing away your privacy rights in one go right there and the govt did not even have to ask you for it

    The problem isn't the number or the card but the consolidation of this info in one place. The database ie the national population register. A file is opened for each & every citizen.

    It starts off with little data, but gradually in the name of 'preventing terrorism', 'stopping crime' or 'protecting children' it starts to grow. The file would contain or link to more and more personal information such as: your spending habits, your ethnicity, your religion, your sexual preferences, your political leanings, your health records, your criminal records, your driving record and convictions. Naturally the government currently have ‘no plans’ to add such data and maintain that they will have ‘adequate safeguards’ in place…

    There is no way to stop this 'feature' creep once a national register is created.

    This is the main problem
    Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Jul 11, at 00:43.

  6. #21
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    It has some common data to a passport but isn't to be used that way. Passport isn't really a good example to use here because not everybody has one. You only want one to travel abroad. Also nobody uses your passport# as a common key to identify you in other databases only the passport dept
    But the data on the passport is all any authority needs to identify me, that's why I asked. It has my photo, my biometrics data, my DOB, my address and finally my unique number. What else do they need to make a positive identification?


    Ah but all that data is in different silos and with ppl that don't normally talk to each other. If they want to pull up your picture they have to do some work and the only way is if there is a good reason. Whereas here there is a unique number for every citizen from birth to death. That means it becomes easier to link this data up. It increases control govt has over citizens. More control is not good thats what police states want so they can abuse privacy & freedom.
    We have this unique numbers for over 60 years I think. It is 13 digits numbers showing from which you can easily read it DDMMYYYPPSRRR (D-day, M-month, Y - year of birth, P-place of birth, S-sex and final 3 digits show which kid you are born that day). Since you are way bigger country I think you will need 18 digits

    And this happens in a country that has relatively strong data protection laws. We have nothing approaching that yet. Our record of enforcement of laws isn't that great either. Lots of potential for abuse exists.
    I am still confised of the leaks Brits are facing.

    Exactly, citizens should be asking for transparency from their govt not the other around.
    As I said, I'll write to the PM, Ministers and Parliament members to fill daily reports like every other man and woman I am paying. Then I'll leave to a remote unknown location

    Most ppl think it would be more conveninent because now there is only one card to carry but they forget what happens to the data. They see the front end ie the card but forget about the back end ie the data base. Its out of view. If you want to use one card for everything then you are implicilty agreeing to the govt using that number for everything isn't it. You are signing away your privacy rights in one go right there and the govt did not even have to ask you for it
    The backside is always more important. I remember a bank clerk was making fuss for not having signature on the backside of my debut card. Why do you need it? To determine it is you. The same bank has all my data including my signature in their system.

    The problem isn't the number or the card but the consolidation of this info in one place. The database ie the national population register. A file is opened for each & every citizen.
    But can you read what's in it for you? That's the problem. Back to the Brits, this is from few months ago.

    It starts off with little data, but gradually in the name of 'preventing terrorism', 'stopping crime' or 'protecting children' it starts to grow. The file would contain or link to more and more personal information such as: your spending habits, your ethnicity, your religion, your sexual preferences, your political leanings, your health records, your criminal records, your driving record and convictions. Naturally the government currently have ‘no plans’ to add such data and maintain that they will have ‘adequate safeguards’ in place…

    There is no way to stop this 'feature' creep once a national register is created.

    This is the main problem
    I had no idea my spending habits are thread to the national security. I will start buying elsewhere.

    On a serious note, I believe they already have these things. Still don't see how my privacy is intruded if they gather all this?

    Who and how will use it is another topic and should be strictly regulated. At least there will be a law who can manage that. At the moment your security agencies have or can have within days like 80% of that data.

    On a paranoia side, let me ask you, do you have a personal e-mail address. The one from Gmail, Yahoo Hotmail or similar? You truly believe it is save and noone reads ir? How about the one at work? Remember that your internet traffic is being monitored right now and it is not only your government doing it

    The thing is to adapt to this hi-tech era and get used to be monitored, but not going psycho at the same time.
    Last edited by Doktor; 20 Jul 11, at 01:03.
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  7. #22
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    But the data on the passport is all any authority needs to identify me, that's why I asked. It has my photo, my biometrics data, my DOB, my address and finally my unique number. What else do they need to make a positive identification?
    Fingerprints & iris scans. Why they need my fingerprints ? I am not a criminal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    We have this unique numbers for over 60 years I think. It is 13 digits numbers showing from which you can easily read it DDMMYYYPPSRRR (D-day, M-month, Y - year of birth, P-place of birth, S-sex and final 3 digits show which kid you are born that day). Since you are way bigger country I think you will need 18 digits
    But do you use this number for everything ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    I am still confised of the leaks Brits are facing.
    Its proof that data is not secure. Trying to tie everything to one number will compromise many ppl's privacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    As I said, I'll write to the PM, Ministers and Parliament members to fill daily reports like every other man and woman I am paying. Then I'll leave to a remote unknown location
    You can do that what about others that cannot

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    But can you read what's in it for you? That's the problem.
    What does this mean ? You have to ensure the data they get from you is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    On a serious note, I believe they already have these things. Still don't see how my privacy is intruded if they gather all this?
    I don't see why the job should be made easier. To get this info they have to provide a reason to many places. With one number that requirement might go away. THey jsut have to pass laws that bypass it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Who and how will use it is another topic and should be strictly regulated. At least there will be a law who can manage that. At the moment your security agencies have or can have within days like 80% of that data.
    Its not regulated, i dont trust the safeguards they have in place. I do not trust their enforcement of said regulations.

    If there is penalty of death by firing squad due to abuse i will feel better

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    On a paranoia side, let me ask you, do you have a personal e-mail address. The one from Gmail, Yahoo Hotmail or similar? You truly believe it is save and noone reads ir? How about the one at work? Remember that your internet traffic is being monitored right now and it is not only your government doing it
    I have several email addresses and use different identities in various forums. You cannot use one name and fine my presence anywhere else. I don't use my real name anywhere online. credit card transactions are maybe the only exception. Facebook wants my real name so i don't join facebook. Otherwise there is a good seperation between online & offline.

    The point is i can control my exposure but with a mandatory card i lose that control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    The thing is to adapt to this hi-tech era and get used to be monitored, but not going psycho at the same time.
    Tell that to the Brits They don't have a unique# in that country. Maybe NHS is about it.

    The question is how much monitoring and WHO is doing it. Do you understand the concept of privacy. Do you understand that you are entitled to privacy by your country's constitution.

    If your govt tells you to jump, you do not ask how high, you question why.

    Suggest you go through the articles linked to earlier to get a better idea.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Jul 11, at 08:54.

  8. #23
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Fingerprints & iris scans. Why they need my fingerprints ? I am not a criminal.
    IDK why they need the fingerprints, why they need biometric photos and iris scans? They are not collecting DNA, yet!

    But do you use this number for everything ?
    That number is de facto YOU. Whenever someone wants to determine it is you that number is required. Paying taxes, paying in bank, applying for job, going to your doctor, you name it.

    Its proof that data is not secure. Trying to tie everything to one number will compromise many ppl's privacy.
    No data is secure, that's a fact.

    You can do that what about others that cannot
    They can try to send this request via psudo-name from a remote internet cafe without cameras :P

    What does this mean ? You have to ensure the data they get from you is correct.
    Yep. You should be also able to see who accessed your data in the past (only ongoing investigations should not be visible) and for what purpose.

    Here if the police is following you and/or your conversations (internet, phone, home, car...) and if they don't start a process within 90 days after the warrant is expired, you must be notified, all the tapes are at your disposal for hearing, watching, after which you entitled to witness their destruction, after which you sign a statement. If you refuse to listen watch them, you must put it in writing and also put it in writing you authorize the Police to destroy them - your choice.

    More over you can enter the Ministry of Interior and get all the eventual investigations that you were part of presented to you. The only limit is they have to be closed for more then 90 days.

    I don't see why the job should be made easier. To get this info they have to provide a reason to many places. With one number that requirement might go away. THey jsut have to pass laws that bypass it.
    I don't say it should be simplified, I say it should be regulated, since it is illusory to think the govs will stop following us.

    Its not regulated, i dont trust the safeguards they have in place. I do not trust their enforcement of said regulations.

    If there is penalty of death by firing squad due to abuse i will feel better
    I agree the penalty should be severe. And no I wont feel better, because I know the creator can always play with the system he/she created.

    I have several email addresses and use different identities in various forums. You cannot use one name and fine my presence anywhere else. I don't use my real name anywhere online. credit card transactions are maybe the only exception. Facebook wants my real name so i don't join facebook. Otherwise there is a good seperation between online & offline.

    The point is i can control my exposure but with a mandatory card i lose that control.
    Are you sure you can really control your exposure? After all, you leave a trail behind you (TCP/IP, phone codes, signatures from your devices...)

    Tell that to the Brits They don't have a unique# in that country. Maybe NHS is about it.
    The privacy watchdog groups should rather educate the citizens how not to overexpose, rather then to spread panic. Also, they should be take part in the writing of the procedures who and how can access and file data in system.

    The question is how much monitoring and WHO is doing it. Do you understand the concept of privacy. Do you understand that you are entitled to privacy by your country's constitution.
    Who is doing it, and how the data is stored and accessed is the key. I still think it's better to have this area heavily regulated then to let the agencies work in a grey area.

    If your govt tells you to jump, you do not ask how high, you question why.

    Suggest you go through the articles linked to earlier to get a better idea.
    I don't give a damn what my or any other government tells me to do if that's against my principles. If it is OK what's asked from me I'd do it voluntarily, if I don't find it appropriate I wont. For instance they changed ID cards formats and design and every citizen was obliged to get a new one starting 01.01.11. I still have my old one on which it's clearly printed is valid till 2014. And I am still able to finish all my things. With the old one.

    On the contrary my passport was to expire in 2012, but I changed it in 2010 for a new with biometrics chip, in order to travel without visa in EU

    Maybe because the commies controlled us with such efficiency in the past we are used to intrusion of privacy and learnt to live knowing at least a pair of eyes and ears are on our backs. In my sincere belief every gov in the world is doing that more or less, the thing is how is it regulated and how the system is controlled.

    Back to the ID number. Having unique ID number is not a bad idea. The number itself doesn't determine anything but who are you and that's it. What happens afterwards is what matters.

    You have 20 different cards, fine. Are you secure? No.
    The data from all the 20 cards can be linked so easily into one big database and that can be done within one year. Then what, they still have all your data in one place but you still carry 20 cards.
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  9. #24
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    IDK why they need the fingerprints, why they need biometric photos and iris scans? They are not collecting DNA, yet!
    I'm not a criminal, they don't need my fingerprints or DNA. No other ID system in the country requires this except the criminal database. They want to make it compulsory for all citizens. They can get stuffed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    That number is de facto YOU. Whenever someone wants to determine it is you that number is required. Paying taxes, paying in bank, applying for job, going to your doctor, you name it.
    So you already have a degree of convergence. We do not and i'm not seeing the advantage of creating that convergence either.

    Paying taxes i have a PAN#, any financial transactions over a certain amount require that number to be included. Paying the bank i have an account#, that is all . Going to the doctor we do not have universal health coverage so there is no number. If you go to a hospital, they register you and give you a number. That number is different for each hospital. If they want to know my medical history i show them what the referring physician has said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    No data is secure, that's a fact.
    In that case you want to limit the extent of damage in the case of a breach. Creating one number for everything is the exact opposite. It makes the work of theives even easier because its like having the same password for each account. You understand why that might be a bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Yep. You should be also able to see who accessed your data in the past (only ongoing investigations should not be visible) and for what purpose.
    Ah, so there is some control in your situation. But its impossible currently to tell who saw what in my system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Here if the police is following you and/or your conversations (internet, phone, home, car...) and if they don't start a process within 90 days after the warrant is expired, you must be notified, all the tapes are at your disposal for hearing, watching, after which you entitled to witness their destruction, after which you sign a statement. If you refuse to listen watch them, you must put it in writing and also put it in writing you authorize the Police to destroy them - your choice.
    Very good, this is known as data protection. We have nothing like this. Just laws that say you cannot hack into somebody's info. Too general to be of much use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    More over you can enter the Ministry of Interior and get all the eventual investigations that you were part of presented to you. The only limit is they have to be closed for more then 90 days.
    Nothing like this exists in my country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    I don't say it should be simplified, I say it should be regulated, since it is illusory to think the govs will stop following us.
    It is difficult to do and requires good policing by the citizens. If there is a breach then the damage can be significant. Therefore its better to reduce the extent of damage. Regulations are not bullet proof.

    The argument is we must give up some privacy or freedom for security. The question to ask is WHICH freedom and do we get to discuss this with govt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    I agree the penalty should be severe. And no I wont feel better, because I know the creator can always play with the system he/she created.
    Then better to ensure the creator does not make too powerful a system. Once it is created it is too late.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Are you sure you can really control your exposure? After all, you leave a trail behind you (TCP/IP, phone codes, signatures from your devices...)
    The question is degree. Its not perfect but then again its better than not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    The privacy watchdog groups should rather educate the citizens how not to overexpose, rather then to spread panic. Also, they should be take part in the writing of the procedures who and how can access and file data in system.
    Agree, but until they are invited into this discussion the best strategy is to create awareness. I've filterered out the more attention grabbing articles, the ones i posted here pose questions that i've yet to hear from my govt. They examine the govts stated positions and offer counters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Who is doing it, and how the data is stored and accessed is the key. I still think it's better to have this area heavily regulated then to let the agencies work in a grey area.
    The agencies will get access to any data they want if they can provide a valid warrant. I see no way to stop that as it would impede law & order. The question then arises is why are we trying to put all the citizens info into one big database.

    What benefit is there to the common man from this. For govt & business it is a fantastic way to control things. Fewer cards to carry in the wallet does not cut it for me. I don't need all those cards with me all the time anyway, just for specific purposes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    I don't give a damn what my or any other government tells me to do if that's against my principles. If it is OK what's asked from me I'd do it voluntarily, if I don't find it appropriate I wont. For instance they changed ID cards formats and design and every citizen was obliged to get a new one starting 01.01.11. I still have my old one on which it's clearly printed is valid till 2014. And I am still able to finish all my things. With the old one.

    On the contrary my passport was to expire in 2012, but I changed it in 2010 for a new with biometrics chip, in order to travel without visa in EU
    We will not have a choice once this sytem is put into place. Everybody will start demanding it as a condition to continue services.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Maybe because the commies controlled us with such efficiency in the past we are used to intrusion of privacy and learnt to live knowing at least a pair of eyes and ears are on our backs. In my sincere belief every gov in the world is doing that more or less, the thing is how is it regulated and how the system is controlled.
    A national population register would make the previous commies weep when it comes to efficency & reach. The best part is it is so called free countries like mine that think this is a good idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Back to the ID number. Having unique ID number is not a bad idea. The number itself doesn't determine anything but who are you and that's it. What happens afterwards is what matters.
    You do not know what happens afterwards. If it becomes ubquitious then how will you control what anybody can do with it. Do you make countless laws to stop its use no, its too late at that point. you are screwed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    You have 20 different cards, fine. Are you secure? No.
    The data from all the 20 cards can be linked so easily into one big database and that can be done within one year. Then what, they still have all your data in one place but you still carry 20 cards.
    They can be if one makes the effort to do it. The only way this is justified today is if there is a good reason, crime or other such. Otherwise it is a waste of resources to do with ordinary citizens.

    But once the system allows it, in fact encourages it then the story is very different. The reach such a system will have has not been seen in the past. Most countries with citizens that understand the value of privacy & freedom would not allow such a system to come to be.

  10. #25
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    DE,

    Wiki has a good explanation on our UID. It is created in 1977. I was a minor then and I had a feeling it's here like forever.

    Unique Master Citizen Number - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I think we have similar pov. The thing is I am raised with this system and it's weird for me someone not to have it

    I am raised with breached privacy according to your pov but I feel free. And that's what's important for me.

    Anyway better safe then sorry, nothing serious happened with our data so we are OK with the system. The moment some bad thing will happen and we will get over-exposed we will demand a change, a bit too late I guess.

    Will get back to your remarks later.
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  11. #26
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    DE,

    Wiki has a good explanation on our UID. It is created in 1977. I was a minor then and I had a feeling it's here like forever.

    Unique Master Citizen Number - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I think we have similar pov. The thing is I am raised with this system and it's weird for me someone not to have it
    Right, if they pass it here, then ppl will say what are you complaining about it is legal now. Whether that will happen or not i'm not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    I am raised with breached privacy according to your pov but I feel free. And that's what's important for me.
    When it was introduced you did not have a say but see what happened in Croatia afterwards...

    Although the Republic of Croatia continued to use the JMBG after the independence in 2002 the official name of the number there was changed to Matični broj građana (Master Citizen Number), acronym MBG. Advocates of the right to privacy argued that JMBG was a piece of personally identifiable information that needed to be protected by information privacy law, mostly because it was unique and it included the person's date of birth. When the law to that effect was passed in 2003 it was no longer possible to use JMBG on identity cards, driver's licenses and similar documents.
    There you go.

    Even though law hid MBG from personal documents, various institutions (e.g. banks, schools, insurance companies ...) continued to demand citizens to give their MBG while signing various contracts, since MBG was natural unique identifier of each citizen. Seeing flaw of hiding MBG, on January 1, 2009 Croatia passed a new law that introduced a different unique identifier called the Personal Identification Number (Croatian: Osobni identifikacijski broj, acronym OIB). The OIB consists of 11 randomly chosen digits and has been assigned to all Croatian citizens, companies registered in Croatia and foreign nationals residing in Croatia.
    Here you can see how once various instititions start to use JMBG then it is difficult to change. There is resistance so they have to pass a law to force it.

    Now you can see what a waste it will be for India to do this because even Croatia thinks it should be replaced

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Anyway better safe then sorry, nothing serious happened with our data so we are OK with the system. The moment some bad thing will happen and we will get over-exposed we will demand a change, a bit too late I guess.
    But if Croatia thinks its a bad idea why is Macedonia different ?

    Given the ethnic wars you have had in the 90s where certain communities got targetted, i would think you would be very clear that there should not be an easy list of ppl's ethnicity & religion. In my country its just as important.

  12. #27
    Patron indus creed's Avatar
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    Make it optional, so that we can identify and neuter the morons populating the land....

  13. #28
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Right, if they pass it here, then ppl will say what are you complaining about it is legal now. Whether that will happen or not i'm not sure.
    Not sure either.

    When it was introduced you did not have a say but see what happened in Croatia afterwards...


    There you go.


    Here you can see how once various instititions start to use JMBG then it is difficult to change. There is resistance so they have to pass a law to force it.

    Now you can see what a waste it will be for India to do this because even Croatia thinks it should be replaced


    But if Croatia thinks its a bad idea why is Macedonia different ?
    Croats changed only the format of the UID. They are hiding the date of birth, nothing else is changed. Oh and they have to remember additional 11 random numbers, rather then 3 (I only need to remember the last 3 digits since the others are my DoB, My city and my sex

    Here is a form for opening account in bank in Croatia go to the 2nd page ad you will see they ask both OIB and MBG. So there is no real change imv.

    Last time I checked Slovenians (most advanced form ex-Yu) had the JMBG system intacted.

    Given the ethnic wars you have had in the 90s where certain communities got targetted, i would think you would be very clear that there should not be an easy list of ppl's ethnicity & religion. In my country its just as important.
    We hardly had a war here. It was more like low scale conflict and it was in 2001.

    Considering the ethnicity we can tell you if someone is Albanian or Macedonian by the name. And btw, IIRC there is no 'nationality' graph when you enlist the kid in the system.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  14. #29
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    That has been a valid point from the start. BioEnable has taken up the project for biometrics for the Aadhar, and they claim they do have and use the best technologies in regards to fingerprint quality.
    Sure ?

    India's ID card scheme – drowning in a sea of false positives | Dematerialised | March 2011
    How UIDAI goofed up pilot test results to press forward with UID scheme | money life magazine | March 18, 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    Apart from that, the Aadhar is still yet one step up than any of the other systems for ID in place in India right now. Aadhar will only reduce identity theft in India, not increase it.
    Will not be difficult to hack this system and create false identities. The biometrics cannot be faked, fingerprints & iris scans are unique. All that is required is a fake name & address and to make sure that info resides in the NPR by an insider. That's it

    Already we're having a soul searching moments with all the scams over the last couple of years. A national population register will be the ultimate enabler for corrupt regimes. Not this party or that party but every party.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Jul 11, at 00:53.

  15. #30
    Patron indus creed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Sure ?


    Will not be difficult to hack this system and create false identities. The biometrics cannot be faked, fingerprints & iris scans are unique. All that is required is a fake name & address and to make sure that info resides in the NPR by an insider. That's it
    Biometrics are still electronically stored in bits and bytes. They are just complicated passwords and the password database will be in govts(read, corrupt bureaucrat's) hand. Even if it were secure with strong cryptography, imagine the concentration of power in the hands of indian bureaucrat and those who are remote controlling him.

    Already we're having a soul searching moments with all the scams over the last couple of years. A national population register will be the ultimate enabler for corrupt regimes. Not this party or that party but every party.
    ^^ Agree 100%.
    Last edited by indus creed; 21 Jul 11, at 17:38.

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