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  • #46
    That's the thing about owning land. The 'owner' seldom makes more money from the land (appreciation) than the fellow who creates 'value' from the land ( the developer).
    Don't listen to me, I'm a wack job.

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    • #47
      Hello folks. Allow me to rant a bit, while hopping not to ofend anyone...


      As a Portuguese citizen, I sometimes find it... upseting... to be compared with Greece. And I'm sure (after talking to a few nationals) that the Irish feel the same. Yes, we have our own corruption and mismanagment problems (who hasn't?!) but Greece was the western world's champion on tax evasion and... shaddy practices at all levels.

      But in the past few days, I've been checking some data on Greece's military spending. Greece has
      -14 frigates, 10 corvetes, 17 FACs, 7 subs (more on order)
      -280+ combat aircraft
      -800 Leopard MBTs
      And all of this equipment is modern, not old junk. All this, for a country with a population of 11 milion!

      I think it's time Greece stops worrying about the Turkish-boogeyman, and starts worrying how much all of this gear costs to buy, operate and maintain...

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
        Hello folks. Allow me to rant a bit, while hopping not to ofend anyone...


        As a Portuguese citizen, I sometimes find it... upseting... to be compared with Greece. And I'm sure (after talking to a few nationals) that the Irish feel the same. Yes, we have our own corruption and mismanagment problems (who hasn't?!) but Greece was the western world's champion on tax evasion and... shaddy practices at all levels.

        But in the past few days, I've been checking some data on Greece's military spending. Greece has
        -14 frigates, 10 corvetes, 17 FACs, 7 subs (more on order)
        -280+ combat aircraft
        -800 Leopard MBTs
        And all of this equipment is modern, not old junk. All this, for a country with a population of 11 milion!

        I think it's time Greece stops worrying about the Turkish-boogeyman, and starts worrying how much all of this gear costs to buy, operate and maintain...
        They are not afraid of Turks. They are afraid of us ;)

        Jokes aside, I've been saying this for a while, Greeks had like 5th military budget (as % of GDP), while they need Europol to guard their borders for immigrants.
        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
          Hello folks. Allow me to rant a bit, while hopping not to ofend anyone...


          As a Portuguese citizen, I sometimes find it... upseting... to be compared with Greece. And I'm sure (after talking to a few nationals) that the Irish feel the same. Yes, we have our own corruption and mismanagment problems (who hasn't?!) but Greece was the western world's champion on tax evasion and... shaddy practices at all levels.

          But in the past few days, I've been checking some data on Greece's military spending. Greece has
          -14 frigates, 10 corvetes, 17 FACs, 7 subs (more on order)
          -280+ combat aircraft
          -800 Leopard MBTs
          And all of this equipment is modern, not old junk. All this, for a country with a population of 11 milion!

          I think it's time Greece stops worrying about the Turkish-boogeyman, and starts worrying how much all of this gear costs to buy, operate and maintain...
          As we in the UK are desperate for Arms maybe we can borrow some, at a price of course. Seriously, the interest on the debt is crippling so a vastly reduced rate may help.

          Comment


          • #50
            Turkey isn't a boogeyman if you're a Greek.
            Those who know don't speak
            He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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            • #51
              Italy next:

              "ROME, July 12 (Xinhua) -- The ripples of Italy's economic struggles are being felt across Europe as its stocks remained stagnant Tuesday after two consecutive trading days of sharp drop.

              Italy's economy has long been among the weakest in the European Union (EU), with economic growth trailing the average for the EU as a whole in eight of the last nine years, amid regular threats of credit downgrades, and dim growth prospects going forward.

              But now the country's debt level has been a rising cause for concern, with overall debt reaching 120 percent of the country's gross domestic product and the country's budget deficit around 7 percent of GDP, double the supposed deficit limit for euro countries.

              The conditions are enough to worry investors, who fear that Italy could be the next domino to fall after the bailouts in Greece and Ireland.

              On Monday, those worries sent the Italian Stock Exchange in Milan into a freefall, slipping 5.2 percent at its worst before recovering slightly to finish nearly 4 percent lower on the day, leaving it now 21 percent lower than in February.

              And the losses continued to pile up: stocks opened much weaker in Milan on Tuesday, falling a further 4.2 percent in the first hour of trading but reduce its drop to 0.49 percent at noon.

              The spread between the return on Italian and German debt - an oft-quoted measure of the attractiveness of each country's bonds - on Monday reached its largest gap ever, at more than 3 percentage points.

              Hopes that an emergency 47 billion euro (66 billion U.S. dollars) austerity budget might help shore up investor confidence in the country's economy evaporated after it was revealed that about 40 billion euro (56 billion dollars) of the impact was back loaded to 2013 and 2014, after the current government being out of office.

              "This is a kind of cocktail of disappointing information and data," Stephen Wood, chief market strategist for Russell Investments, said.

              Monday's bad news in Italy sparked smaller drops from stock markets across Europe: all 18 western European stock exchange blue chip indexes lost ground, including a 1-percent drop in London, a 2.3-percent fall in Germany, a contraction of 2.7 percent in France and a 2.7-percent drop in Spain."


              Italy's economic struggles sparking big worries at home, across Europe

              Problem is that Italy is 8 biggest economy in the world and Europe cannot afford to bail them out.

              Comment


              • #52
                Random thoughts...

                Why noone is mentioning UK? I have read somewhere their debt is 400% of the GDP.

                So what we have?
                a) a country with very bad economy and debt over 150% of the GDP (referring to Greece, not Germany,which has the same debt)
                and
                b) a country which is OK with debt = 400% of the GDP.

                So either debt/GDP ain't the formula or Moodies were really in the mood when rating UK and Germany.

                As for the Greeks, I heard they will go to a "partial default" (@#$%^) WTF is that? Either you have defaulted or you didn't not.

                Hey, yesterday I had partial sex ;)
                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                  Random thoughts...

                  Why noone is mentioning UK? I have read somewhere their debt is 400% of the GDP.
                  Politics, and the fact that it's not in the Eurozone.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I have been pondering this more and it seems to me that the whole chaos started with the Bank insolvency problems 2 yrs ago. Since then we have been delaying the inevitable. Let me explain:

                    Two years ago we found out about the 'sub prime' problem in the US which had been sold (or exported) to alot European Banks who were thus exposed to what essentialy amounted to shoddy mortgage selling practices in the US. Now because all the banks had shares in each others debts once this became a problem for one it spread. Certainly the use of 'retail banking' (normal customers) profits could not sustain the losses of the investment banking arms and that there was no clear difference between these activities the retail banking sector also became exposed to the losses of investment banking sector. This then became a problem for the politicians as if the retail banking sector goes caput then you get the end of money circulation. While purely investment banks (Lehmans etc) were alowed to go bust those who also had retail sectors (Lloyds TSB etc) were bailed out all over the West with public money. This was done for political reasons mostly but they avoided a 1930s meltdown and clapped themselves on the back for being so clever. First opportunity to close the problem was lost.

                    So we were left in a situation where those investment banks that survived had to start making good their losses, while all the Governments who bailed out banks pumped money into their economies to get them going again - increasing the Government debt exposure that they had, in effect, bought from the banks. Also many of these banks were now facing new Government rules and were under alot of political pressure to do as they were told. Yes I realise different European economies have individual structural problems and the Greeks in particluar have massive tax evasion problems etc but this is an overall view.

                    So when the markets and investment bankers went about making good their losses specific problems (such as Greek tax evasion) came to light and the cost of borrowing for Greece (and later Ireland and Portugual) became prohibitive. This time another political imperative was at risk - the Euro. But these Governments had 'bucked the market' in the banking problems so again for political motives they bailed these small economies (Greece, Ireland and Portugal together are aprox 8% of European Government debt). What is more because the politicians had bailed the banks and proclaimed that they would not let the Euro fail the banks were encouraged to buy the bonds of these essentialy insolvent countries - how insane as it was the banks themselves who had increased the cost of their borrowing. However the counter to this was that the bankers would be able to impose the reforms and essentialy the budgets of the Governments they propped up, hence Greek uproar etc. Thus a second chance to stop the rot was lost again for politcal reasons.

                    Now at the last meeting economic ministers when a 2nd Greek bailout was supposed the subject they the price of Italian borrowing is rising; http://www.123jump.com/market-update...ntiment/44986/ Yes they have borrowed some more money at a higher rate of interest but over the next 2 yrs they need to re-borrow another whole load more (500 billion euros of bonds maturing in the next three years) and the current rates this is not viable (see Plunge Brings Europe Debt Crisis to Italy - Bloomberg).

                    So what happened here? Well first the retail and investment banking business were not sufficiently seperated so the vital retail sector became exposed to losses in the investiment sector. Fair enough and at least in the UK steps are being taken to deal with this. Then the politicians, for political reasons , propped up the banks and essentialy bought their debt. The Governments then went on a 'quantative easing' spending spree increasing their exposure to the markets. So now the Governments are busy to rake back the debts they bought from the banks with cuts and tax increases which means slow growth and the banks are trying to make back their money by higher interest rates for the exposed Governments! Again and again we have thrown money - public money - at politicialy inspired attempts to 'buck the market'; first to prop up the retail banking sector then for the Euro. Essentialy all we have done is transferred the banks exposure to bad debt to Governments so instead of bailing out banks we are now bailing out Governments. Its like a bicycle running over glass with one tyre patch and Italy, I hope will prove the final puncture as we simply do not have enough to bail an economy that large (23% of Euro nation debt see Italy debt crisis fears hit euro and share prices - Channel 4 News).

                    We have missed two chances to stop this rot for political reasons and that suggests that more good money will be wasted yet. It would perhaps have been easier to let the banks go bust in the first place but I would suggest primarily we need to learn not to let politicians throw public money at markets for political reasons is the real lesson we must learn here. There was always going to be a nasty recession but I fear we are bound for a second and far nastier that will spread to many countries outside Europe because politicians have wasted our money on broke banks and Governments.
                    Last edited by snapper; 12 Jul 11,, 23:43.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                      Random thoughts...

                      Why noone is mentioning UK? I have read somewhere their debt is 400% of the GDP.

                      So what we have?
                      a) a country with very bad economy and debt over 150% of the GDP (referring to Greece, not Germany,which has the same debt)
                      and
                      b) a country which is OK with debt = 400% of the GDP.

                      So either debt/GDP ain't the formula or Moodies were really in the mood when rating UK and Germany.

                      As for the Greeks, I heard they will go to a "partial default" (@#$%^) WTF is that? Either you have defaulted or you didn't not.

                      Hey, yesterday I had partial sex ;)
                      UK is actualy relatively safe:GDP vs National Debt by Country

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pu..._world_map.svg
                      Last edited by snapper; 12 Jul 11,, 23:50.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                        Random thoughts...

                        Why noone is mentioning UK? I have read somewhere their debt is 400% of the GDP.

                        So what we have?
                        a) a country with very bad economy and debt over 150% of the GDP (referring to Greece, not Germany,which has the same debt)
                        and
                        b) a country which is OK with debt = 400% of the GDP.

                        So either debt/GDP ain't the formula or Moodies were really in the mood when rating UK and Germany.

                        As for the Greeks, I heard they will go to a "partial default" (@#$%^) WTF is that? Either you have defaulted or you didn't not.

                        Hey, yesterday I had partial sex ;)
                        uh the UK debt is nowhere close to 400% and Germany's debt (as part of GDP) is about half of that of Greece

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          List of countries by external debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                          Rank↓ Country↓ External debt[2]
                          US dollars↓ Date↓ Per capita[3][4][5][6]
                          US dollars↓ % of GDP[7][8][9]

                          2 United Kingdom 8,981,000,000,000 30 June 2010 144,338 400%

                          3 Germany 4,713,000,000,000 30 June 2010 57,755 142%

                          19 Greece 532,900,000,000 30 June 2010 47,636 174%
                          my shock was so big I never analyzed the data.
                          Last edited by Doktor; 13 Jul 11,, 03:20.
                          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Wait 'till the markets get to the US... I give Europe 2-3 months max then the rest of 'house of cards' and political prop ups will fall, US included.

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                            • #59
                              As far as I am concerned they can drop 10bil over here so we can build infrastructure then we can all go to reset ;)
                              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                                Turkey isn't a boogeyman if you're a Greek.
                                Turkey was not a boogeyman 100 years ago. It is high-time they move on.

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