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Thread: NATO's CV Issue

  1. #1
    Military Professional wabpilot's Avatar
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    NATO's CV Issue

    Now I have an open source so I can write about what I have been hearing. 30 - 40% of NATO's airstrikes in Libya are coming from the French Carrier Charles de Gaulle. CdG cannot continue this pace forever. In fact, she will have to break off the engagement sometime this fall. Then, NATO is going to lose the biggest single contributor to its air operations. That cannot be replaced. The land bases within range of Libya are already strained to keep up. This highlights the usefulness of carriers in general and the importance of building carriers big enough to actually work, in specific.

    Here's a link to the open source: Analysis: NATO first to blink in Gaddafi's war of nerves - Yahoo! News

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    Senior Contributor Stitch's Avatar
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    Obviously, the only "replacement" would be a CV or a CVN (probably a CVN); but, given the US's step backward last month vis-a-vis the Libyan imbroglio, that's not likely to happen. NATO would have to come to the US and REQUEST a CBG presence in the southern Med, and that's probably not going to happen.
    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    So putting USN out of the equation leaves the other NATO countries without a CV(N)? What a surprise.

    Last time I checked Italians had 2 CVs what happened to those?
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    Contributor ace16807's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    So putting USN out of the equation leaves the other NATO countries without a CV(N)? What a surprise.

    Last time I checked Italians had 2 CVs what happened to those?
    They're only for S/VTOL, i.e. harriers.

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    So? Harriers can also carry bombs, last time I checked
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    Contributor ace16807's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    So? Harriers can also carry bombs, last time I checked
    Just pointing out that it isn't nearly as versatile as the CDG. Also, a bit of research indicates that the Garibaldi is on station in the Med with harriers flying sorties into Libya. Dunno where the newer carrier is or Spain's for that matter.

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    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    All I know is Spaniards sent 4 planes (think F-18) and that's it from them.

    Another think comes to my mind. If the African league is supportive for the action, why don't they give some of their airfields for the campaign?
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    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stitch View Post
    Obviously, the only "replacement" would be a CV or a CVN (probably a CVN); but, given the US's step backward last month vis-a-vis the Libyan imbroglio, that's not likely to happen. NATO would have to come to the US and REQUEST a CBG presence in the southern Med, and that's probably not going to happen.
    More then likely the USN would supply one but it may also request that all NATO members help foot the bill for having in on hand. Not an unreasonable request IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wabpilot View Post
    This highlights the usefulness of carriers in general and the importance of building carriers big enough to actually work, in specific.
    ... most missions in Libya are flown from land bases on Malta, Sicily, Corsica and mainland Italy; only about a quarter of aircraft assigned to the mission are carrier-based (Rafales and Harriers).

    The French carrier is mostly useful to extend CAP times, but considering the mockery that is CAP over Libya that could be dropped too. France is currently planning to redeploy the unit assigned to the mission from Corsica to Sicily to increase sortie turnaround rates.
    The Italian carrier is mostly needed for Italy to bring significant payloads into theater; the F-16s Italy is flying from the mainland are a bit too short-legged to yield significant payload/range ratios, and they don't really have enough Eurofighters to make up for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    More then likely the USN would supply one but it may also request that all NATO members help foot the bill for having in on hand. Not an unreasonable request IMO.
    Technically, we can blame that little adventure NATO is having a bit further east. That one has the nominal 6th Fleet carrier group tied up east of Suez.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    All I know is Spaniards sent 4 planes (think F-18) and that's it from them.
    Nah, they also sent some ships .- hrough SNMG1 and SNMCMG1, which were rerouted to the Libya op (leading to Germany withdrawing from both).
    Last edited by kato; 17 Jun 11, at 23:11.

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    Military Professional wabpilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    So putting USN out of the equation leaves the other NATO countries without a CV(N)? What a surprise.

    Last time I checked Italians had 2 CVs what happened to those?
    Cavour and Garibaldi are small and the Italians only ordered 16 AV-8B+ Harrier IIs. Don't know how many they have left. Certainly both ships do not come close to replacing CdG.

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    Military Professional wabpilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    ... most missions in Libya are flown from land bases on Malta, Sicily, Corsica and mainland Italy; only about a quarter of aircraft assigned to the mission are carrier-based (Rafales and Harriers).
    And a few Super Etendards. Note that while a quarter of the aircraft assigned are on the CVN, 30-40% of the daily sorties are flown from the CVN.

    The French carrier is mostly useful to extend CAP times, but considering the mockery that is CAP over Libya that could be dropped too. France is currently planning to redeploy the unit assigned to the mission from Corsica to Sicily to increase sortie turnaround rates.
    Not really. The MN flies mostly attack missions.

    Technically, we can blame that little adventure NATO is having a bit further east. That one has the nominal 6th Fleet carrier group tied up east of Suez.
    If you Euros pulled your own weight in NATO or for your own defense, you would have more carriers and would not always be dependent on us.

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    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wabpilot View Post
    Cavour and Garibaldi are small and the Italians only ordered 16 AV-8B+ Harrier IIs. Don't know how many they have left. Certainly both ships do not come close to replacing CdG.
    Well, o/c not, but they could be handy. Spaniards have another 2 STOVL.

    Again, why don't the African Union nations offer airfields since they are backing up the operation? Or they are not?

    Quote Originally Posted by wabpilot View Post
    If you Euros pulled your own weight in NATO or for your own defense, you would have more carriers and would not always be dependent on us
    But there is no direct threat to EU security and they need better education and healtcare
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Again, why don't the African Union nations offer airfields since they are backing up the operation? Or they are not?
    Should be obvious.

    Closest Airfields to Tripolis:

    Algeria:
    Annaba (El Mellah) - 670 km
    Constantine (Mouhamed Boudiaf International) - 720 km
    Ouargla (Ain Beida) - 740 km

    Egypt:
    Mersa Matruh - 1350 km

    NATO:
    Malta - 350 km
    Pantelleria - 450 km
    Sigonella - 530 km

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    Might have been handy.

    Egypt and Tunisia want to stay out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wabpilot View Post
    . If you Euros pulled your own weight in NATO or for your own defense, you would have more carriers and would not always be dependent on us.
    Ahh well we Brits would love to help out W/P , BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTT we dont seem to have the recources now , soooooooooo have a pop at Cameron .


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