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Pakistan Arrests C.I.A. Informants in Bin Laden Raid

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  • Asim Aquil Reply

    "...The beginning of which would be when this pliant and corrupt government is overthrown."

    Hopefully through elections. That's how it's done in most civilized places. In the military we salute the rank, not necessarily the individual. In civilian life you respect the process, not necessarily the politician.

    If democracy matters then protect it by protecting its institutions.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

    Comment


    • Originally posted by S2 View Post
      "...The beginning of which would be when this pliant and corrupt government is overthrown."

      Hopefully through elections. That's how it's done in most civilized places. In the military we salute the rank, not necessarily the individual. In civilian life you respect the process, not necessarily the politician.

      If democracy matters then protect it by protecting its institutions.
      Only through elections. When I say overthrow, it could also mean pressure to make the incumbent leaders resign. Technically Musharraf only resigned, practically speaking he was overthrown. An year or two is anyway needed to raise awareness and make people come out to vote. 30% of the total voter list voted last time. 45% of that is said to have been fraudulent non-existent voters - as determined by the courts. That leaves actual voters mostly just those people who live on the vast lands owned by rich families like Bhuttos and the Chaudharies. Sharifs don't directly own the land, but their party members do.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Vinod2070 View Post
        As a mod, the decision is yours but I find him a good source of one strand of Pakistani opinion here, even if I personally consider that opinion as duplicitous and too apologetic for the evil for the most part.

        I think it is good that we have a few Pakistani voices here in a neutral setting that should be allowed to have their say.
        V:

        None of the mods disagree with you that it is good to have all views represented here and that AM represents one of those views. Unfortunately he chose to be provocative when the topic called for reasoned discussion. While no one is required to respond to questions, it is hardly possible to work through a debate by ignoring key ones.
        To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
          V:

          None of the mods disagree with you that it is good to have all views represented here and that AM represents one of those views. Unfortunately he chose to be provocative when the topic called for reasoned discussion. While no one is required to respond to questions, it is hardly possible to work through a debate by ignoring key ones.
          For the record its offensive to be queried if you're with Bin Laden or not. The rigidity of it all is that after 10 years we're still acting like cave man led charge by Bush that if you're not with us then you must be against us. A spirited and logical defence based upon the follies of an attack, be it Bin Laden, be it the spawn of satan - the far reaching effects of bypassing due process is a valid question to be raised and will never be stopped from being raised.

          To question if that equates allegiance with Bin Laden is an extremely sad course social evolution has taken us into. Given that the same person is on record to have smacked religious extremists and their rotten sympathizers on countless equations. Not to forget that you guys only talk about a free society, secularism and democracy, he does so under the threat of being killed for it and yet does so, so openly.

          Its everyone else's loss who becomes so rigid and does not get to interact with such remarkable people. Truth be told, this topic was never about who a certain individual is, regardless of their political position, we should refrain from commenting upon the debaters personal characteristics. General rule of debate.

          Comment


          • trolling and racism- do it again at your peril.
            Last edited by zraver; 20 Jun 11,, 22:57.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Asim Aquil View Post
              Neither has Pakistan, the chronology of the argument was that America would attack Pakistan for not bowing to its demands. Btw, 34,000 Pakistani civilians and 5000 Pakistani soldiers have died as a result of this war, so thank you very much your tragedy pales in comparison. We know why its important to take severe action against terrorists.
              I know this is the number generally quoted by Pakistanis but apparently that is not the number of Pakistani civilian casualties.


              Civilians
              Security Force Personnel
              Terrorists/Insurgents
              Total
              2003
              140
              24
              25
              189
              2004
              435
              184
              244
              863
              2005
              430
              81
              137
              648
              2006
              608
              325
              538
              1471
              2007
              1522
              597
              1479
              3598
              2008
              2155
              654
              3906
              6715
              2009
              2324
              991
              8389
              11704
              2010
              1796
              469
              5170
              7435
              2011
              1082
              408
              1177
              2667
              Total
              10492
              3733
              21066
              35290

              This would suggest that 21066 of those 34000 were terrorists/insurgents as per Pakistani definition.

              Fatalities in Terrorist Violence in Pakistan 2003-2011

              Of course, even one civilian killed by terrorists is one too many, one still needs to be correct with facts and figures.
              There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Asim Aquil View Post
                I believe I remember his words were "I give the US my unstinting support", wearing a white casual shalwar Kurta, the image is forever impressioned in my mind. Till then we didn't know who Musharraf was either and it was sort of a proud moment for most of us as we had thought we joined a noble cause.
                You did, the US is not the one who hoodwinked you.

                The feeling no longer exists today and that moment is recalled as a moment where we sold our national existence. There are Pakistan Parliament resolutions condemning the US Osama op, there are resolutions demanding an end to US drone strikes. That is enough to weigh in the legality of military actions against Pakistan.
                Those are Pakistani domestic issues, not international law issues. Under international law the operation to kill Bin Laden was legal via UN Resolution to which the then Pakistani President admitted included using military force against Pakistan for its role in supporting the Afghan Taliban and serving as a transit point for the AQ jihadist who attacked the US, the UN Charter which recognizes no higher right than that of a nations self defense- a right that transcends borders ipso facto, and under the laws of war concerning the conduct of belligerents (principle of discrimination and proportion). Now please support your claim that the op was illegal under international law

                Originally posted by Asim Aquil View Post
                Personally the peeving bit is not the Osama op, its all that happened before it. Say this op happened in 2005, heck maybe it would have been okay before Feb this year, when the Raymond Davis incident happened. It wouldn't have felt so bad, but in todays post Raymond Davis incident Pakistan the US looks like it is above the law and killing Pakistanis. It has to end and cannot be allowed since the alternative is to cease Pakistan existing as a country and start living as a colony of America.
                By all reliable accounts Davis was attacked by two armed men. It does not matter if those men's fingers were on the trigger or not they brandished a gun and created a life or death situation for Davis. The shooting was self defense. Secondly he enjoyed diplomatic status and was immune to prosecution the same way a Pakistani diplomat would be if they broke the law here- ANY LAW no matter how vile. The principles of diplomacy require that absolute sanctity of diplomats- period full stop. Third- per Pakistani law and tradition the blood price was paid- end of story.

                In this hopeless scenario, I foresee Pakistanis going towards terrorism
                And many in media and on many forums say that journey began long ago and that claims its a new event are simply the acts of the deranged to seek justification for their derangement..

                since there is no due process to bring America to the book. We all warned the powers that be that this would happen if they cheat on the Davis issue. I am being honest here, there is no way Pakistan is turning back, we will keep pushing and keep being defiant wherever there is a scenario where US says "Just do as you're told". The beginning of which would be when this pliant and corrupt government is overthrown.
                You've now made another claim of fact- cheat on the Davis issue- what cheating and who cheated?

                Comment


                • Pakistan is doing the same thing Iran is doing, which is to conduct foreign policy through proxy groups. Pakistan uses JEM and LET and the Talibans, and Iran uses Hizbollah and Hamas.

                  Asim- Pakistan has no sovereignty that the rest of Nations can recognize. Pakistan has not been operating in a responsible manner.

                  Pakistan has lost control of her proxies. That's putting it diplomatically- because If it's intentional, it's all-out war and Pakistan doesn't win that one.

                  If the US has to go into Pakistan and take out an enemy, that is a mortal enemy to the US- we gave Pakistan the opportunity to join us and take the fight to the terrorists. Pakistan chose to double-deal and try to protect her proxies.

                  All we hear from Pakistanis on this board are excuses, conspiracy theories, and phony indignation. No "mea culpas"- the good guys are now the bad guys.

                  We're not sympathetic to your protests.

                  Wasn't that guy Pasha the General who was in charge of the military academy In Abbotabad when OBL moved in? Then he went on to be the head of the ISI? This guy knew nothing about OBL living next door?

                  We're supposed to inform him?
                  "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Asim Aquil View Post
                    For the record its offensive to be queried if you're with Bin Laden or not.
                    Offense was clearly unintended; his comments invited the question.


                    The rigidity of it all is that after 10 years we're still acting like cave man led charge by Bush that if you're not with us then you must be against us.
                    Seems like a perfectly logical assumption.

                    A spirited and logical defence based upon the follies of an attack, be it Bin Laden, be it the spawn of satan - the far reaching effects of bypassing due process is a valid question to be raised and will never be stopped from being raised.
                    Then let's raises a couple of questions:

                    From what you now know about the operation, how would you guarantee the same result following due process?

                    And, what would have been the far reaching effects had due process led to a breach in security and the opportunity missed?

                    To question if that equates allegiance with Bin Laden is an extremely sad course social evolution has taken us into. Given that the same person is on record to have smacked religious extremists and their rotten sympathizers on countless equations.
                    Which makes the question all the more pertinent. He downplayed Bin Laden's role such that anyone would be tempted to ask where his sympathies lay. He could have clarified. I understand what lay at the heart of his attitude. He's a patriotic Pakistani angry that his country's sovereignty was not worthy of respect by the US in this case. Or maybe he's angry because he realizes that his country's unreliability as an ally created a dilemma for the US. One that put the US in a position where it had to decide whether to respect Pakistan's sovereignty to the hilt and likely miss an opportunity 10 years in the making, or proceed and suffer the wrath of the likes of AM. The last was the least bitter pill.


                    Not to forget that you guys only talk about a free society, secularism and democracy, he does so under the threat of being killed for it and yet does so, so openly.
                    Then he should appreciate the fact that the US acted boldly in the face of inevitable censure by the Pakistani people.
                    Last edited by JAD_333; 21 Jun 11,, 03:19.
                    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Asim Aquil View Post
                      For the record its offensive to be queried if you're with Bin Laden or not.
                      Replace Bin Laden with Indian Army and then tell me the same.

                      I've asked once replace FATA incursion with an Indian Army penetration, then tell me your Army's efforts would be identical.

                      Get off it, Asim. You support your Army when it suits you ... and you protests when it does not. It's one or the other ... not both.

                      For the record, OBL was OPERATING IN YOUR TERRITORY! PERIOD. FULL STOP! And your own ISI ignored evidence to the fact, prompting the Americans to recruit people who thought otherwise.

                      Comment


                      • I noticed the calling Bush an Idiot for the use of the term "With us or against us" while I'm still trying to judge Bush's presidency as a whole and am undecided, I wanted to comment about this line in particular. You may not be aware, but a major figure in Western philosophy and religion happened to be quite fond of this line, a certain Jesus of Nazareth. So realize that Bush didn't come up with this sort of thinking without influence.

                        But leave that as it may, let's look at in another way. Assume Pakistan and the U.S. were reverse in terms of power. Now a group of extreme Canadians plot a terrorist attack that kills 3,000 Pakistanis in one day. How would Pakistan respond to that event?

                        Pakistan goes to the U.N. and gets approval to bring justice to the perpetrators of that act. So Pakistan proceeds to invade Canada. The terrorists flee to the United States. The United States meanwhile is suffering attack by other extreme Canadian terrorists, yet after 10 years the Pakistanis learn that the figure head of this Canadian terrorist group is located close to West Point. Pakistan doesn't trust the CIA because well there have been a number of near misses when involving them. What does Pakistan do?

                        (Note this is an analogy to try and get some of the Pakistani posters here to realize just how many Americans view Pakistan)

                        I will say that I would not be tolerant of my gov playing tightrope between a radical group raging war on its own citizens and its citizens. The gov should have the guts to take on those bringing war on its own people. The gov of Pakistan disgusts me. Last I checked it wasn't U.S. troops trying to usurp control in Pakistani Providences. Nope that would be the factions associated with AQ and the Taliban.

                        Also who cares if it was 10 years since 9/11. When that happened we owed the family and friends of our country men and women who died justice. And not a damn thing would stop the U.S. from hunting down that man. Even a President that ran on a peace platform wanted to nail this guy, what does that tell you?

                        I for one am very tempted to let my Rep and Senators know just what I think of the Pakistani Gov, and how we could use that money we give that Gov to better use over here. I don't think I am alone on this. One voice may not matter, but we find the new leader of AQ in Pakistan close to Pak Gov facilities and a million voices will.

                        Comment


                        • Have read this interesting thread all pages with interest. Just a few points i would like to make.

                          1. I agree with the Pakistani posters on their loss of Sovereignty. No normal nation tolerates violation of it's sovereignty and there are international laws to the effect. However, Pakistan for sometime which is a very long time which is since it's inception has not been a normal nation. Harboring terrorist organizations and using them as instruments of State policy and aims has been going on for some time which is a long time now. By all accounts it has gotten away not just lightly but been rewarded handsomely all these years it made various groups that target civilians in India.

                          2. It's really good for India, that many of these groups now focus West and within Pakistan. It brings some pressure off at least in the sense that the West now is beginning to realize how sham of a country this is as far as Truth is concerned. If these groups had solely focused their Jihad on India, i doubt many Americans or Westerners here would have commented at all.

                          3. Laws are man made. Islamic or secular or UN or any country. Truth is above law. Laws are framed to reflect Truth. Truth and Justice are not separate. Justice is a subset of truth. If you don't believe in Truth, your justice system will reflect falsehood. Truth is Osama was evil. He represented an Evil ideology. He was instrumental in killing people. The US rightfully made it explicit that it will do anything to get him. Truth is Pakistan 'agreed' to fight and help hunt him down. Truth is i always believed he was not in some cave, but in a Pakistani Cantonment. I posted same years back on a forum. i was vilified then for posting that. Truth is that those who assisted in the operation in a general way, helped Pakistan's own stated goals in the so called WOT. So there is no argument to arrest them.

                          4. I find it disgusting that in the first place a state harbors not 1 or 2, but an entire gamut of terrorists and then points to some rule book on sovereignty. And when someone tries to do something about it, yells sovereignty.

                          5. India's biggest and most terrible 911 type event occurred in 1993, excerpt from Wiki for those not aware:

                          The 1993 Bombay bombings were a series of 13 bomb explosions that took place in Bombay (now Mumbai), Maharashtra, India on 12 March 1993.[3] The coordinated attacks were the most destructive bomb explosions in Indian history. The single-day attacks resulted in up to 250 fatalities and 700 injuries.

                          The attacks were coordinated by Dawood Ibrahim, don of the Bombay-based international organized crime syndicate named D-Company , which had also operated as a terrorist organization.

                          Ibrahim is believed to have ordered and helped organize the bombings in Bombay, through one of his subordinates, Tiger Memon. The bombings are also believed to have been financially assisted by the expatriate Indian smugglers, Hajji Ahmed, Hajji Umar and Taufiq Jaliawala, as well as the Pakistani smugglers, Aslam Bhatti and Dawood Jatt. The Indian authorities have also alleged the involvement of the Pakistani intelligence agency, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) in the blasts.
                          Dawood Ibrahim and most of it's mastermind perpetrators escaped and are safely housed in Pakistan. The ISI link is undeniable. The proof is in the fact that Dawood remains despite Official Pakistani denial in comfort in Pakistan, protected by the State.

                          6. Pakistani Nukes are meant in the first instance for deterring Abottabad type incidents/ raids from the Indian side. The reason is the State can use these groups to create mayhem in India and if India wants to retaliate, it threatens a Poker type "all in" response.

                          7. That Pakistan sides Terrorists is undeniable...Indian Embassy bombings in 2008 in Kabul was directly linked to ISI too.

                          Washington: On the basis of intercepted communication between Pakistan intelligence agency ISI and militants, the US has reportedly drawn a conclusion that Pakistan’s intelligence agency ISI was behind the July 7 suicide attack on Indian embassy in Kabul which claimed more than 50 lives, including four Indian staffers.
                          8. This pattern is too obvious. Plausible deniability and then pointing to laws to show justification. It's happening all the time for 60 plus years as far as India is concerned.

                          9. The US or any other nation aids Terrorism as long as it arms a state that has such a policy against India. No man made laws can keep up with a Nation that believes in hoodwinking such to achieve it's objectives.

                          10. Pakistan as a normal state wanting to live in peace is a chimera. Pakistan does not want to live in peace. PA and Al Qaeda motives are the same. Jihad. Whereas AQ wants to focus it's energy West, PA wants to focus East. The Utopian quest is Ghazwa E Hind. The conquest of Hind. India. Islamizing India under the Sharia is the aim and core motivating factor. All actions in Pakistan stem from that. Terror, Lies, Deceit and Nukes are important towards achieving that or working towards that.

                          11. India presently has a very liberal Govt. People who believe others are just like them and want peace ans such. That's a classic mistake. All people don't have the same value systems. Some do genuinely believe in lies, deceit, untruth. So am glad that the US is involved and learns from the direct involvement in Pakistan and in the process does some dirty work that India cannot do. More important is that the US is learning..what it means to arm a nation like Pakistan. Can expect China to do that, but the US..it lowers itself and it's citizens doing so.

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                          • Details Emerge About Bin Laden's Multiple Residences In Pakistan | Fox News

                            Laden stay in Pakistan was longer than was originally thought
                            Keyboard is mightier than gun

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