Pakistan Arrests C.I.A. Informants in Bin Laden Raid

[zraver]

Osama op was illegal since you cannot present a single piece of document authorizing an operation on Abottabad by US troops.

UN Security Council Resolution 1268 9/12/01 authorizes the US and the world at large to use all means to combat terrorism..... India is legally justified in waging war on Pakistan for Mumbia so you might want to think about that Pariah status your advocating for Pakistan.

Yes Americans did it only because they are powerful enough to break the law and do things illegally to further their means.

The operation was legal.

But it will and always remain an illegal act for which all those involved and caught should be jailed.

It was not illegal

The ends do not justify the means.

The UN gave the US and her allies in the war on terror explicit permission to pursue those responsible for international terrorism where ever they fled to.

We have already dared to do it. The horrendous nature of American actions are not culminated in the Osama op however, it was the Raymond Davis incident, where an American murdered two Pakistani kids and got off scott free. That is the problem in legalizing Osama op, everything becomes legal in the fear of the most powerful country.

Davis shot two would be murdering thieves (or ISI minders you pick), was extorted by the thieves family for blood money and then let go in accordance with Pakistani law.

Fear of America is a relic of the past in Pakistan. This is just the beginning. Come election time this pliant pro-American government would be booted making way for pro-freedom government. Bravery is always termed stupid, till it works out. I realize how its in your best interest to do some scare mongering, but its falling on deaf ears as its a time for change and nothing can stop it, not 100 not 10,000 nuclear bombs!

Yes because that pliant from Taliban government set up has worked out so well for your nation.

[Asim Aquil]

UN Security Council Resolution 1268 9/12/01 authorizes the US and the world at large to use all means to combat terrorism..... India is legally justified in waging war on Pakistan for Mumbia so you might want to think about that Pariah status your advocating for Pakistan.

There is not a single resolution allowing military action within Pakistan. Not a single one.

The operation was legal.

Illegal by international and Pakistani laws, if you dig deep its probably illegal by US laws too

It was not illegal

It fails to convince Pakistanis and we will always treat it as such. If you can get a vote from the UN, Pakistan abides by UN security council resolutions, just as it did in the treatment of JuD as LeT.

The UN gave the US and her allies in the war on terror explicit permission to pursue those responsible for international terrorism where ever they fled to.

Not in Pakistan, never.

Davis shot two would be murdering thieves (or ISI minders you pick), was extorted by the thieves family for blood money and then let go in accordance with Pakistani law.

That was also a lie, where are the families today? They have vanished into oblivion.

Yes because that pliant from Taliban government set up has worked out so well for your nation.

On the contrary no dealing with Taliban has worked out well for us, and now that you're dealing with them, it won't either work out for you. In fact as things stand today you're the one making much larger deals with the Taliban.

[Asim Aquil]

Can you define what the bolded bit means and the criteria you use to evaluate progress on said objective.
How to test the bolded bit.
What are the expectations.

Othewise statements alone by leaders are just rhetoric.

Follow up the Saleem Shahzad case. Pakistani protests have forced, the government to host an independent commission to investigate ISI's role in the killing. ISPR too has voiced support for the investigation. Rule of law is being implemented.

[zraver]

There is not a single resolution allowing military action within Pakistan. Not a single one.

Asim, you are wrong, the US and her allies were given carte blanche in September of 2001.

Resolution

The full text of Security Council resolution 1368 (2001) reads as follows:

“The Security Council,

“Reaffirming the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations,

“Determined to combat by all means threats to international peace and security caused by terrorist acts,

“Recognizing the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence in accordance with the Charter,

“1. Unequivocally condemns in the strongest terms the horrifying terrorist attacks which took place on 11 September 2001 in New York, Washington (D.C.) and Pennsylvania and regards such acts, like any act of international terrorism, as a threat to international peace and security;

“2. Expresses its deepest sympathy and condolences to the victims and their families and to the People and Government of the United States of America;

“3. Calls on all States to work together urgently to bring to justice the perpetrators, organizers and sponsors of these terrorist attacks and stresses that those responsible for aiding, supporting or harbouring the perpetrators, organizers and sponsors of these acts will be held accountable;

“4. Calls also on the international community to redouble their efforts to prevent and suppress terrorist acts including by increased cooperation and full implementation of the relevant international anti-terrorist conventions and Security Council resolutions, in particular resolution 1269 of 19 October 1999;

(page 1b follows)

“5. Expresses its readiness to take all necessary steps to respond to the terrorist attacks of 11 September 2001, and to combat all forms of terrorism, in accordance with its responsibilities under the Charter of the United Nations;

“6. Decides to remain seized of the matter.”

[Double Edge]

Follow up the Saleem Shahzad case. Pakistani protests have forced, the government to host an independent commission to investigate ISI's role in the killing. ISPR too has voiced support for the investigation. Rule of law is being implemented.

So if this commission comes up with the finding that the ISI and by extention the state is innocent then what is the reaction ?

You did say independent, usually that implies a retired judge but there is always govt influence.

When are the findings of this commision expected to come out ?

How credible it the track record of former independent commissions in Pakistan ?

[Asim Aquil]

Asim, you are wrong, the US and her allies were given carte blanche in September of 2001.

Resolution

The full text of Security Council resolution 1368 (2001) reads as follows:

“The Security Council,

“Reaffirming the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations,

“Determined to combat by all means threats to international peace and security caused by terrorist acts,

“Recognizing the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence in accordance with the Charter,

“1. Unequivocally condemns in the strongest terms the horrifying terrorist attacks which took place on 11 September 2001 in New York, Washington (D.C.) and Pennsylvania and regards such acts, like any act of international terrorism, as a threat to international peace and security;

“2. Expresses its deepest sympathy and condolences to the victims and their families and to the People and Government of the United States of America;

“3. Calls on all States to work together urgently to bring to justice the perpetrators, organizers and sponsors of these terrorist attacks and stresses that those responsible for aiding, supporting or harbouring the perpetrators, organizers and sponsors of these acts will be held accountable;

“4. Calls also on the international community to redouble their efforts to prevent and suppress terrorist acts including by increased cooperation and full implementation of the relevant international anti-terrorist conventions and Security Council resolutions, in particular resolution 1269 of 19 October 1999;

(page 1b follows)

“5. Expresses its readiness to take all necessary steps to respond to the terrorist attacks of 11 September 2001, and to combat all forms of terrorism, in accordance with its responsibilities under the Charter of the United Nations;

“6. Decides to remain seized of the matter.”

That is flimsy wording and if tried in the ICJ it will never agree with your interpretation and you can't launch attacks into any country just as you see fit. Try to launch an attack into say China and see what happens in response. Till date you have not been able to launch a single attack on Iran, your sworn enemy, the only reason you get away with Pakistan is because our pliant government lets you carry out illegal attacks...

[Asim Aquil]

So if this commission comes up with the finding that the ISI and by extention the state is innocent then what is the reaction ?

You did say independent, usually that implies a retired judge but there is always govt influence.

When are the findings of this commision expected to come out ?

How credible it the track record of former independent commissions in Pakistan ?

Right now we are trying to control the government from weaseling out. The effort is to get it started and this would be the first of an independent nature where the ISPR has agreed for its institutions to be investigated from an independent authority.

In that sense the ISPR is so far playing it clean, the government however is trying to crush the investigation.

Moreover if the results are unconvincing (if innocence is unconvincing) then more confrontation would ensue.

So that brings the law n order tally from ISI's role in journalist , to Lakhvi (for Mumbai attacks) and now hopefully American spies. I said this thing from the get go, this movement is not going anywhere and ultimately every power in the world will have to bow to Pakistani public pressure, you have no idea the extent of anger the Pakistani public has over the lack of independence and freedom the nation is currently going through.

[Vinod2070]

^^ If you are counting on Imran Khan to bring about the "revolution", you may have to wait for a very long time.

He does have a way of attracting the middle class Pakistanis but he has no real policies except a lot of rhetoric. His achievements in the decades of politics are nothing to write home about as well.

Of course it pays to sound anti US in Pakistan and he is cashing it to the hilt, when it comes to actually defining his policies, he is mostly a bag of hot air.

[Asim Aquil]

^^ If you are counting on Imran Khan to bring about the "revolution", you may have to wait for a very long time.

He does have a way of attracting the middle class Pakistanis but he has no real policies except a lot of rhetoric. His achievements in the decades of politics are nothing to write home about as well.

Of course it pays to sound anti US in Pakistan and he is cashing it to the hilt, when it comes to actually defining his policies, he is mostly a bag of hot air.

Only he has always clarified his position of not being anti-US but like US. He says these are the ethics and laws that a modern western society follows for itself

[1980s]

That is flimsy wording and if tried in the ICJ it will never agree with your interpretation

As if you would know. You're not an international judge or lawyer.... What a joke! You cant even name the 'international laws' supposedly broken that zraver asked you to.

[Vinod2070]

Only he has always clarified his position of not being anti-US but like US. He says these are the ethics and laws that a modern western society follows for itself

Well, he certainly blames US for all the terror in Pakistan. He believes that once the US leaves, the terror will take care of itself.

That is certainly simplistic. More likely Pakistan will fall to the Jihadis and people like Imran will be simply swept away.

He is another one of those who want to find an external scapegoat for all the issues in Pakistani society, not realizing that what is happening now is the result of the decades of policy when Pakistan tried to overreach itself and use the Jihadis for its ends at the cost of radicalizing its own society.

He is either extremely naive or extremely cunning. None of it will help when the time comes.

[Asim Aquil]

As if you would know. You're not an international judge or lawyer.... What a joke! You cant even name the 'international laws' supposedly broken that zraver asked you to.

Violation of international sovereignty, I don't need to name it, its a given.

[Asim Aquil]

Well, he certainly blames US for all the terror in Pakistan. He believes that once the US leaves, the terror will take care of itself.

That is not true. He only partly blames the US for aggravating the war on terror amongst groups that wouldn't have joined Al Qaeda. He says once you get FATA to quit supporting Taliban AND Pakistan fights the top tier Taliban and AQ groups, the fight will be over relatively sooner. In fact he says within 90 days of actual fighting.

That is certainly simplistic. More likely Pakistan will fall to the Jihadis and people like Imran will be simply swept away.

Very 2001ish scaremongering. More likely AT would be asked to leave Pakistan, TTP and AQ will be wiped off the map without FATA support.

He is another one of those who want to find an external scapegoat for all the issues in Pakistani society, not realizing that what is happening now is the result of the decades of policy when Pakistan tried to overreach itself and use the Jihadis for its ends at the cost of radicalizing its own society.

I repeat once again though he has picked up the drone issue, he has focused his blame upon the Pakistan government, the Pakistan army and the ISI. Yes all these groups are also tagged as American collaborators. More recently the June 25th Dharna in Multan is no longer the Drone Dharna, but its a remove the government Dharna.

He is either extremely naive or extremely cunning. None of it will help when the time comes.

Very broad spectrum - I'll tell you something else. He is honest. He has all his assets declared and his financial statements posted on insaf.pk. Not just him but the rest of PTI's money flow is there for all to see. He doesn't have swiss bank accounts and has used his own earning to help run a Charity cancer hospital.

You can't just give blanket statements out there, prove that he has done anything wrong... He is on a league of its own and will be a heavy weight when it comes to justifying illegal actions against Pakistan.

Wikileaks has Anne Patterson saying that Nawaz, Zardari, Kayani, the Mullah parties all kept currying favors from her and the US. Imran Khan is the only one she described as the one who called her and her team to his house, gave them a 45 minutes lecture and they went without having a counter argument to him.

He is the one who is leading the charge in getting Pakistanis to pay taxes (fully paying his own taxes and publishing those figures as well).

He is the one who pushed the courts to try and declare the voting process as a fraud where 45% of the votes were of voters that don't even exist.

[1980s]

Violation of international sovereignty, I don't need to name it, its a given.

"International" sovereignty?

Please dont talk about things you dont know about.

If it was a breach of this supposed "international" sovereignty that bothers you people so much then you are but a bunch of two-faced hypocrites. So dont even try and cite 'the law' which you dont even value but try to apply selectively when it suits your hollow nationalism.

Was there any outcry from Pakistanis against their establishment when thousands of Pakistani FC personal crossed into Afghanistan during the 1990s to fight alongside the Taliban in taking Kabul in '96 and Mazar-e Sharif in '98? Or when Pakistani jets were violating Afghan sovereignty as late as April 2001 for bombing positions of the Northern Alliance? What a f'n hypocrite. It goes even way deeper than that:

"We (Pakistan) launched a jihad -- holy war -- in Afghanistan (against the Soviets)...We drew Mujahideen from the entire Muslim world...We armed and trained the Taliban...I supported the recognition of the Taliban government in Afghanistan...I was of the view that the whole world should have recognised and had relations with the Taliban government." - Gen. Musharraf speaking at the university of London on June 16, 2011.

Hows that for a violation of "international" sovereignty.

You're such poor liars, and even worse debaters. You wanabe intellectuals just yap nonsense for the sake of it, dont you? Dont you realize that this isnt some ignorant audience you're talking to? Clearly you dont. What a pitty.

Leave the legal talk aside. You dont know or understand international law and your establishment is by far one of the worst violaters of it in the post-WWII era.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Ah but it's all about perception you see. Pakistan perceives that those who passed intel to the Americans are traitors to Pakistan and should be executed. Americans perceive the ISI as being terrorist supporters, therefore by your own logic they should be destroyed. See?

It isn't about 'perception' at all - the people who assisted a foreign military and intelligence agency in carrying out unauthorized military strikes on Pakistani territory are traitors - no question about it.

On the other hand, your claims about 'ISI being terrorist supporters' continue to be nothing but conspiracy theories and hogwash. And if you really want to 'bomb' those sheltering 'terrorists', bomb US/NATO Afghan installations inside Afghanistan first, for sheltering one of Pakistan's most wanted terrorist leaders, Brahamdegh Bugti, and allowing terrorists to operate freely out of Eastern Afghanistan in attacking Pakistan.